Who knew clean power could be so stinky?
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I should have specified, well trained donkey. And specifically a donkey as
The true strength of the donkey lies in its exceptional capacity for sustained, low-speed travel. Donkeys are built for endurance and can maintain a consistent, comfortable pace for many hours a day
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A small update on my efforts to try and remove the hum: nothingās worked, Iām convinced the problem is outside the house, and I assume getting a power company to do anything about it is a lost cause lol. I feel like Iāve done everything in the book aside from redoing the entire panel, but Iām pretty sure Iām dealing with a phase imbalance coming into the house or just a horribly noisy incoming line. Ruled out everything internally, and every troubleshooing step lead to mostly nothing aside from narrowing it down I guess lol. I think Iām done messing with it considering that it can be variable depending on the day, although thatās not consistent, but it just makes me think thereās likely little I can do about it.
Thankfully, each change Iāve made has still given the expected audible improvement, and the hum is only physical (mostly) so I think itās best if I just ignore it for now and continue to focus on building back normally.
On that note, Iāve really realized how much the powerplants likely held me back, despite fixing mostly any issues I would have with outright bad power (like right now, they likely wouldāve fixed this lol), but thatās also their biggest weakness. They take in whatever and give you a consistently good quality output, but itās only conisistenly good, never truly great, never bad, youāre stuck with what you get and canāt really go beyond it, smaller tweaks get lost on it from my experience. In comparison, the Shunyata is decidedly less heavy handed in itās impact to the sound, but thereās also more potential with cabling and upstream power improvements, it can scale more while imparting less signature than the PS audio stuff. I feel like Iāve both tried but not properly tried a lot of power conditioners in the past, I wrote a lot of them off because they either sounded like the choked out or sterilized the sound, or did little, but now I really just wonder if that was more a sign of lack of true optimization in my older setups than anything else (although there are ones which I still feel just sucked outright lol). On the note of power cables
I also feel like my power cable preferences were overly dictated by the power plants that everything ran through (mostly), and now that I have a more neutral base that responds a lot more to changes, Iām noticing more substantial and meaningful improvements with each cable change. Interestingly from what Iāve been trying, some of my impressions are quite similar, others are very different. @dB_Cooper was definitely right with the Shunyata NR cables, theyāre somewhat dull and homogenous sounding on analog gear, but on digital, they end up sounding more refined and lively, although you can still tell the hints of that homogenity linger but the overall positives outweigh the negatives if youāre looking to set your source on a more balanced path. I think for my current setup that I still might end up liking a bit more ālifeā injected into the mojo, so I may end up moving the shunyatas to only digital to digital gear (when those come in) as I think the filtering aspect of those cables show most of their strength when it comes to that. I also found that the cables filter other things connected nearby on the same receptacle, even if I just have the cable plugged in connected to nothing, I can hear those expected impacts from the cable to a slight degree in other componets connected next to it, so something to be mindful of especially if you run all components on shuntaya cables, I would expect the effect to become more substantial.
I had tried a few other power cables as demos, and I think for my current setup in order to maintain balance, I found that for my pass that snake river was really the ticket and returned the rest. I think that getting a pair of zenwave dsr interconnects was a partial mistake, as it leaned the system a bit too forward and a bit too bright, but also sort of blurring the accuracy in stage becoming more diffuse in exchange for larger and more grand representation. This would be a nice characteristic in a speaker system, but I think in a headphone one it throws off balance too much, and I wasnāt liking the cleaner dryer tonality as much. The signature amp power really helped to balance that out again, adding more definition and tigthness to placement and space yet still keeping the slightly more grand nature of the presentation which I appreciate more now. It also helped to resolve some of the sameiness that the shunyata imparts to the dac, giving more tonal and textural variance depending on the music, making it feel more distinct and less homogenous. Iām tempted to swap the dac to snake river as well, but before I do so I need to 1. get in a better USB than what I have now, and 2. determine what I want to do with the zenwave if I keep them or change those to snake river instead and keep the shunyata on it. Unsure, but will reassess when I get my proper digital frontend and cabling sorted.
All of this to say, now that smaller tweaks are making more of a meaningful impact in my setup than what I recalled in the past with (largely) the same equipment, it makes me curious to get more into other tweaks and nail things down more.
Iāve only had limited experience with fuses myself, I think the only one that I noticed a worthwhile difference in my old setup with was a SR purple fuse, but now knowing what I know, what other fuses are worth looking at? Would be curious on others experiences with fuses and whatās worth considering trying, since I now think I have power properly setup to see real benefits even if Iām not at the same level of equipment I was at before
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Sometimes it helps if you bang your head against the wall. lol Jeez, man, I feel for your struggle here and Iām almost ready to start a go fund me page for your moving house endeavors.
I still wouldnāt give up until I bitched thoroughly to the local power company, maybe even lie and say that you have sensitive medical equipment on premises. The other thing, and give the amount of time youāve been at it, is there anything DC running in the house thatās connected that could be feeding the whole house?
DC lighting is easy to check through and disconnect but other things may not be as obvious, a garage door sensor, an alarm for a sump pump or a legacy house alarm AC to DC transformer that was never disconnected. Just dive DEEP into the sleuthing.
Personal preference, but itās also against what Shunyata even states, but both on my pass HP amp and the F8 donāt have much experience outside of that but itās interesting to note youāre seeing something similar.
Honestly EVERYTHING is a give and take and no gain is free, typically youāre losing something elsewhere and thatās why itās so damned subjective and specific to the chain.
Yeap, and again both good and bad outcomes can come from it, so very specific.
Itās a slippery slope and youāll get a lot and I mean a lot from GOOD vibration/isolation on the DAC, the amp and preamp and digital source in that order for me nothing nearly as pronounced on other components.
Just live dangerously and go with the copper sluggo and or the graphene sluggo. LOL
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Iāll figure it out eventually lol, maybe. But for the next house if I move I will absolutely be bringing some test equipment and making a realtor/owner uncomfortable lol
Thatās my next step, I just havenāt done it yet because the money that could go to an electrician or what Iād have to pay to have the power company check it out has been better spent on other upgrades at the moment, but after USB and digital improvements I will just hit a wall where I have to do that. Good idea on the medical idea.
I thought it was DC for the longest time, but after trying various DC blockers and an isolation transformer with no results (well there were results, it sounded worse with a lot of that stuff in chain), and also shutting off all the breakers in the house except the audio one and inspecting everything (and unplugging or disconnecting every device thatās not absolutely critical), nada. Only thing I havenāt really tested without is the actual power meter itself, which I probably shouldnāt screw with lol.
Yeah pretty crazy they basically just want you to use NR everything
I need to do that, I just have to abandon my rack for that, and I also wonder if I would have much benefit right now considering physical vibration/hum. Although maybe thatās a sign to open things up and mechanically isolate transformers with some sorb or other materials lol. Something Iāll be working on when I tackle power once and for all.
I know itās so good, but I canāt afford to take a loss that big if something does happen right now lol. I donāt think that shunyata will offer much protection
Itās unlikely to be a phase imbalance, youād need to bve running 240V to even see one.
The only real test you can do to determine if itās external (or at least the equipment your using to test) is to completely isolate the power to the devices you want to test. What I mean by this is turn off all the breakers except the one you have the equipment on, disconnect everything from that circuit, trn off any lights on that circuit and test it.
If ot still hums itās one of 3 things.
- Bad power
- Something wrong with the Equipment (youād need to try it somewhere else to verify)
- Someone/Something nearby dumping moise either into the Ether RF or onto your shared power line.
I know Iāve asked this before, but is the noise 60Hz or 120Hz (it can be surprisingly hard to tell if the noise it quiet), most 60Hz noise is going to be RF or a ground loop, not something direct from your power, any noise on your powerlines, will usually double in frequency when it gets rectified, resulting in 120Hz noise on the output signal.
Iām honestly not sure what sort of noise on your powerline a decent filter wouldnāt remove, DC usually causes the device to physically hum, and the power section of absolutely everything everdesigned is designed to filter 60Hz noise, itās generally higher frequencies that will make it through. Ground loops can cause 60 Hz noise, but those are generally inside the house issues.
I realize this is not helpful in resolving the issue, and Iām all in on the frustration of hums.
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This is good to know. Iād leave it to M0N to confirm but I think heās mentioned actual transformer hum.
I recently sent one of my plate amps for the Rel subs back to Rel. They gave me a little bit of resistance but eventually with me stating that having two subs and moving the subs and the noise following the sub and blah blah. They sent me back a new amp and the transformer hum was gone.
That said, part of me testing, I powered the amp while outside the sup and placed it upside down with the transformer portion holding the weight and the hum went away so mine was clearly a physical transformer vibration.
But Iād never though about the 60/120 difference but I guess thatās easy enough to troubleshoot byā¦ do you hear it via the driver (does it change in volume) or via the transformer.
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Got it, I just didnāt know if there was some sort of potential imbalance between positive and negative but I donāt really know since while Iām horribly uninformed on electricity I thought it came into the house at 240v and the 2 legs are split off to form 120v and the issue could be with the outside transformer or something, itās a long shot but I really donāt know lol
Done this, issue persists, itās on its own circuit and I also tried with another one and disconnecting anything on it, same result
It has to be 1 or 3 because Iāve confirmed that those who had the amp and dac before me didnāt observe any issues with what I describe
I want to say 60hz with the pass when itās audible, but Iāll have to check again, itās easier to tell with the pass, the hum out of the mojo is higher pitched so perhaps thatās 120. I will have to listen closely to the chassis of the pass to determine the physical side of that because itās quieter
I am truly at a loss lol. I can absolutely confirm no ground loops as Iāve tested that extensively, including the ground in the house itself.
So the mojo is entirely physical hum itself, and maybe thatās higher pitched because theyāre the square and not toroidal transformers/chokes. The pass will have both physical hum but occasionally can be heard in the signal itself at a low level, but only occasionally, largely just vibrates
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Usually if itās 120Hz, youāll hear it through the Driver (Speaker or headphones).
If itās 60Hz, and you hear it through the driver itās usually either RF (Either physical placement of the device or more commonly physical design of the device), or a ground loop.
Ground loops arenāt really loops, If your devices have multiple signal paths to ground, there can be a small voltage difference between them, that can then turn up on your output. Star grounds minimize the chance of that happening because they provide a clear direct path to ground. But you have to realize the difference betweem Signal Ground and Power Ground, they arenāt necessarilly the same thing, although they will be tied together somewhere in the equipment chain.
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Unless youāve tried it yourself, Iād take that with a pinch of salt.
Unless the noise in egregious, I think some people are just less sensitive to these noises and they honestly donāt hear it when itās clearly there.
see my description of what a ground loop is, you ac have a groundloop inside a single piece of equipment, or between them, they can be close to impossible to trace, or even identify with any cetainty. The easiest way to test it is to test each piece of equipment disconnected from the others, but thatās not alway possible without test gear.
As to primary culprits for RF, anything with a motor (fridges are problematic in houses), any thing with a big transformer, Most Computers are terrible especially if you enable anything performance related in the BIOS. Usually if itās RF though rotating the device 90 degrees will at least change the intensity.
I had an issue on the setup connected to my computer, was convinced it was ground noise, or power noise, probably coming over USB, turned out to be RF, not from the computer, but the transformer in the amp interfering with the DAC I had sitting on top of it. I bought all sorts of filters to fix that, before I eventually happened to temporarilly move the DAC while checking for a bad cable and it went away.
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Sorry @dB_Cooper just canāt trust your ears anymore lol
You canāt miss it when the unit is on and youāre next to it, I can record it if you would like
Got it, Iāll reassess things. I have each individual component grounded with a dedicated chassis ground as well to a dedicated ground block that also has built in ground filtering and isolation, while it didnāt fix the buzz/hum it did improve sq a decent bit. I did find that the physical hum of the pass did decline a bit when I initially got the shunyata conditioner but didnāt remove it, I will have to try some testing with the mojo since I havenāt thought about it but I didnāt test without the shunyata. The NR cable also did not change anything for that either (to my disappointment lol).
I have tried in other rooms of the house, and in isolation with nothing connected, no luck there. I will really have to test for RF, Iāll see if I can absolutely confirm that, but I wouldāve thought that would be solved after turning off everything in the house except the audio gear would have ruled that out, maybe not. Could be a neighbor but thereās some distance so Iād be surprised if it was that intense. It could be other componets, I will test that tonight as well. Although whenever thereās RF I feel like thatās only been audible in the signal and never something physical. I also know that can sometimes be cabling picking that up as well, Iāve tried both shieled and unshielded cable to test but havenāt really come to anything conclusive there, and considering itās a single ended amp I canāt really easily test balanced.
I also honestly wonder about the house ground now that I think about it, since that in itself can sometimes cause voltage fluctuations no? I wonder if monitoring voltage difference over time somehow would help to either reveal a problem outside the house or a shoddy ground, I really donāt know
I should also really consider popping the top off things and make sure everything is tightly screwed down, the reason I havenāt is that it happens with the dac, amp, mic preamp, and ADC, all vibrate to differing degrees and I canāt image that all of that has loose transformers
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Kill me.
As @Polygonhell mentioned, one component at a time and see what happens in case youāre having a component to component issue. Iām sensitive to any noise and the one sub was painful, canāt imagine a transformer concerto like youāre experiencing.
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Before the shunyata, the crane song vibration was audible, after itās not really especially where it is, so I can live with it (if I touch it, can feel it slightly though). Iām sure it might sound better if it wasnāt, but at that point my room/environment are much larger bottlenecks to my recording chain than some physical vibration having some impact. They werenāt made to care about vibration anyways even if they would benefit, I canāt say Iāve ever seen any studio gear thatās done anything to curb vibration (on the solid state side that is)
The mojo is the biggest concern, as is the occasional audible signal hum on the pass (which is dac independent and largely uncommon), but the rest of everything is a non significant issue and just being annoyed knowing that itās there. If I can resolve the mojo, I will be happy and not pay it any more mind lol
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Sluggosā¦ the graphene kindā¦
Theyāre seriously impressive, would take an entire system filled with graphene over an entire system of beefed up power cables (from what I tried at least). Obviously, both is better!
Id get the box and buy a snake river takshaka piggy tail, and call it a day. Worth the expense imo, and to me it was like getting a whole new component (once everythingās sluggoād). I would also try their AC tuning X, but itās not out yet and I donāt think theyāll fit my system ergonomically (the tuning X takes the place of the piggy tail).
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Noted lol
Iāll heavily consider it, and get one to try lol. What is this box you speak of lol
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Itās the safety device (SwissDigitalFuseBox) that functions as the fuse. You can either program it to one specific component rating or a box that can do multiple amp ratings, in case ya want a more versatile option.
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If you wanted to know how itās setup hereās a pic of it on my system (itās ugly, should find a way to clean it up lol)ā¦
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Ground loop or a grounding issue.
Not exactly sure what the setups are in the US, but a high-resistance to ground (as in the actuall earth) can cause all sorts of strangeness. Any mid-tier electrician can take that measurement.
EMC Sniffing Probe, spectrum analyzer or scope, and about a weekend should do it.
Ferrite cores should always be on hand. Cheap little problem solvers.
Install like so on signal cables and hear what happens:
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Small update, caught the dac making a much more prominent buzz in a different lower freq/rate for about a second then go back to the higher pitched quieter normal buzz, now either that means this thing is just actually dying, or that someone or something else is causing that issue. Or maybe thatās just a temporary ground loss or something nonsensical? This stupid problem just makes me more paranoid each time I dig into it further or notice something else going on lol
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Iād say to open it up and tighten up all of the transformer bolts just for the hell of it. I donāt believe for a second that there would be a problem with those things, theyāre justā¦. solid.
But a vibration existing is something that isnāt paranoia, itās there. Do yourself a damned favor to get rid of the paranoiaā¦ take it and plug the offending pieces of gear somewhere else in a different home or a modern apartment building or an office park where youād expect a solid local electrical feed.
EDIT: Had another of my brilliant ideas! Rent a small generator like those quiet Honda ones and see what you get from that!
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