Products and brands to avoid đź’€

General Discvssions & Theory/Vnderstanding
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This is an interesting topic at least in my mind, theres so many gear manufacturers from mainstream to obscure, sometimes its hard to know what to avoid given mediocre stuff gets stellar reviews all the time

Along shit products, id avoid what isnt worthwhile

Why would I get x when y exists

The classic example here would be

I avoid anything topping, terrible price performance and sound signatures

Their dacs arent as bad as their amps but why would I get a d90se when I can get a soekris 1421 or a bf2 for that matter

Another one could be: audio gd dacs kept popping up on sales, I asked m0n who said they were meh, like why would I consider an AGD r7 when I can get a yggy a2 instead

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My 2c on the examples you gave.

Topping are fine for the most part, I don’t like the way they handled the blown headphones, when they had a design problem, I think the more expensive stuff doesn’t compete well and I wouldn’t recommend it, but they are what they are, and there are many happy customers out there.

Audio GD a were one of the first lower priced manufacturers to compete in the direct to customer headphone space. They still get a lot of love on some sites, the stuff I have heard (which isn’t recent) didn’t impress me. But there are pieces some people still seem to love.

I’m a bit concerned this turns into a list of brands people don’t like for whatever reason, there are lots of brand I don’t see myself owning, that doesn’t make them bad, so what’s the criteria here?

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Mediocre enough that you just wouldnt recommend, Im not sure if thats specific enough…

my intention was kind of like a bad experiences sharing, like for example after trying the topping l30, a90 and D90 I wouldnt recommend them to anyone, there are just better options

Now what I would like to know personally is what popular stuff should be avoided because there are several better options

Of course all of this is very subjective

For example I wanted to try out the border patrol dac, I saw nice used prices, youtubers and general peoples approval… but then I read the bad impressions from people that know better, it would have been a mistake to push for that imo

Also its nice to read what you guys wrote about wells and audio gd, helps confirm my bias I guess

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Honestly, there’s not many brands that are worth entirely avoiding unless their products are truly universally awful (rare) or their customer service is shit and they treat their customers like shit (less rare), or some other non sound quality reason to avoid. There’s a piece out there for everyone, and along with that it’s all about synergy and preference. Most products have their pairings and can sound great, but get a bad rap due to poor synergy in differing setups. Others get a bad rap for a sonic goal that some don’t agree with but others do.

Not to say that shitty products don’t exist, but really if these products were universally shit, they wouldn’t still be around, and there wouldn’t still be discussion around them. There’s typically merit in most things, just takes the right person and setup to justify them. Just don’t like the idea of blanket shitlisting products or brands in general

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I didnt expect that take

What I tend to think is that people who swear by their A90 for example just dont know better or may be brainwahed by measurements, because I liked the asgard 3 much better for a fraction of the price I assume most people would

But I may be wrong thats what I currently think

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I’d rather stay away from poopooing manufacturers, there’s a line between don’t like and bad that’s hard to walk in these sorts of threads.

I don’t like A&S because of a single bad experience with a product, and wouldn’t ever recommend one to someone, but it’s a bit unfair to shit on all his products when they are so loved by many others.

Outside the very bottom of the market, if a manufacturers consistently puts out crap that doesn’t appeal to anyone they will go out of business. Hell that happens if they put out good stuff too.

Wells is a good example, there are people who love them, but they have a bad rap specifically on head-fi, (no opinion if they are good or bad) where a very few vocal posters like to claim they are overpriced, and head-fi has disproportionate impact on the used headphone equipment market, so….

I probably wouldn’t suggest a gold note DAC, but they aren’t bad, just not my favorites.
I’ve said my 2c on my Dan Clark headphones experience, but I’m not going to judge his entire range or those who love them.

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But that’s the problem, if they are happy with them, who are you to tell them they are wrong?
I actually don’t think any of the topping stuff that doesn’t destroy headphones is bad. Wouldn’t be my choice at the price point, but I also wouldn’t buy Beyer DTXXX headphones (and I recognize those are good).

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I mean, I think most all toppings are shit and should be avoided, but to be perfectly honest I hate the idea and cult around them more than I do the actual products, they’re low performing whatever for the price, but to say I’d truly hate them or not I don’t know given their price point. And some people do genuinely prefer them over other things I do like a lot more (although more uncommon from what I see lol), it’s just my opinion though, and that’s really the key takeaway.

Basically by trying to outright state “avoid this brand at all cost”, that’s really treading the line by trying to factualize an opinion and really kinda shitting on owners that do enjoy them. If you enjoy topping, more power to you, and keep enjoying your setup if you prefer it over other options, who am I to rain on your parade. I’m going to disagree on claims you might make on how great it is or where it competes, but that’s all it is, just disagreement and conflicting opinion. If you try to push your opinion as fact that’s a different story though, and gets more into the ideology around topping rather than their actual products itself

Pretty much, lots of things are very situational, so it’s unfair to generalized shit on a mfg just because it didn’t work out for you and your goals and system

Exactly, I can still appreciate them for what they are, and see how people like them, but they aren’t for me personally

Yep

I feel similarly that they’re overpriced, but again I can see why they are loved by some, there’s a product out there for everyone

Exactly

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I hear you

I dont know that much about the industry in the higher end of things but it makes sense, its in the lower end were I still feel things get scammy

So if a brand in the higher end is afloat there will be at least someone who loves them

In my experience, some people I know personally are brainwashed and their beliefs influence what they hear, in the spanish groups and forums I have met a ton of people who think that amps and dacs are all snake oil except for the higher measuring ones, they refuse to use their ears to judge

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Like you mentioned borderpatrol, I personally don’t like them, but there’s a few people on this forum that really enjoy theirs, and good for them. So just because I don’t like them and don’t see the appeal means I should then try and claim that they should be entirely avoided isn’t really good for a community, toward the owners in that community, and not really good for the concept of actual discussion and diverse opinions in the hobby. Don’t really think it ends up becoming anything of a productive thread

There’s scammyness across the range. I think it does concentrate in the lower end market where people are inexperienced and gullible, it’s easier to produce said scammy product and push narratives around it, and manipulate the image of that product, etc, it’s not like it doesn’t happen in the higher end to some extent as well.

Maybe, maybe not, could just be some guy putting out high end amps from his garage, and he might sell one or two a year, and while that’s not really a successful business and there’s no info out there about it, he’s still technically afloat. Really it’s hard to predict or explain why some brands are still in business and some aren’t. Sometimes it’s clear, sometimes it’s really not.

Sure, but while topping caters to that market and does push that narrative, that’s not exactly in relation to their products is it? Don’t hate the player, hate the game. If you solely then pin the blame on topping products in specific, it’s kinda a near sighted take, topping just jumped on the wagon, they didn’t create the wagon, and when they fall off, there will be another brand ready to take their place. You have to separate the quality of the product from the brand and community around it

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My hateful thread is now a wholesome one LUL I do appreciate this conversation

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Yes it’s not an uncommon position, but that’s not really the manufacturers fault.
And at least the modern entry level stuff is mostly decent.

You have to realize the only one that’s going to change their mind is them, all you can do is describe your experiences, you can’t know what they experience.
Lots of people don’t believe for examples that cables can make a difference, or that power supplies can matter, and the vast majority have simply never tried for themselves, they just take it as fact.

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I heartily agree.

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All of this really just gets more into problems with the community and associated rather than the products in the end, so to turn around and pin blame on mfg or products doesn’t really accomplish anything productive or accurately address the problem lol

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Again personally I do dislike some brands but specially topping because I think their narrative (ASR) is holding back the potential of the industry to push towards a fully sound quality based production

I may be wrong but it annoys the f out of me

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I use a Topping e30 as the DAC for my TV 2.1 channel setup. I think if you’re buying today and you’re staying in the domain of reputable vendors even if it’s in the Chi-Fi space, there’s little in the way that just utter crap.

I’ve been shown that even products that don’t get universal “love” can find a meaningful place given the right chain.

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I don’t like the ASR narrative, and I think it’s generally bad for the industry. Though it had a positive effect on the entry level, where we went from a few good gems to it’s hard to find bad stuff.

ASR didn’t invent the, there is a correct way to amplify myth, they are just the latest incarnation of it, and it’s easier on the internet to build a bigger community around it, and push it.

ASR created a market, I don’t think that’s toppings fault, before them it was the O2 amp, and before that something else.

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I don’t really think so, because there will always be mfg and people that don’t really give a shit about the rest of the industry that push forward based on sonic merit, and while I do think most mfg care about the general state of the industry, those that care still produce products that focus on sound quality regardless, and that’s more common to see in the higher end than lower end because of the difference in community and audience. It’s not like you’ve seen all high end mfg suddenly stop what they’re doing and throw away everything to make measurement focused amps. The measurement focus in the lower end isn’t holding back any potential in the high end, only causing problems in the lower end, and that’s where the real problems lie.

Still though, there are plenty of amazing products within the same range that topping and other measurement focused mfg produce in. Now are they as popular? No, but they’re still there, it’s up to the community to decide, and most new and naive people in this hobby are going to chose the easy but incorrect answer, and that’s just the general nature of humans and especially online communities, and you aren’t going to change that anytime soon. That incorrect answer will change around throughout the years, but the way the lowest common denominator community chooses that answer will remain the same.

I do think that all the issues you mention are problems within the hobby, and they do need to be addressed, but I don’t really think they have any real relation to specific products and brands in the end. We could get into those community issues and whatnot, but then we are once again beyond the scope of the thread

You get into the greater issue of worldview, human interaction, deep into opinions and psychology, and that’s no fun to discuss lol, at least for me. Mainly because there isn’t anything you can really do about it. It is what it is, we can enjoy our little corner of the hobby, and they can enjoy theirs, hopefully without conflict. But then that’s creating an us vs them mentality, which also isn’t productive. This entire discussion is a wash and doesn’t really lead to any revelations or actual solutions to the problem (which again, is only a problem from our perspective, who is actually “right”?). Fun times

Good way to boil it down. And honestly, I’m way more skeptical of anything that gets universal love or hate than something that gets actual balanced and reasonable positive and negative critique lol

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Dont hate the player, hate the game

Do you think this topics name should be changed or closed? I feel its purpouse is different now

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IDK, it’s not my thread lol, I’m not going to close it, name it whatever you feel like

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