I suspect that most donāt realize they can rename threads.
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How about a āavoid this brand if you are looking for this type of sound?ā
At that point, youād be better served with a different thread if you are going to shift the goal, and I might rephrase to āconsider this product/brand if you are looking for this type of soundā lol
I will move this to general discussion section now though lol
Take your āgrowth mindsetā outta here! jk jk
Its the same problem, still hard to specify criteria for āavoiding recommendationsā to me this thread already served my purpouse I got some nice experienced takes
Regardless ill leave it open to participate
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This turned into a really interesting discussion and I donāt think I have very much I would want to add, other than to give another example.
I have an entry level Audio GD R2R11. It has a very distinctive sound. Itās not clean, not detailed. The sound is kind of grainy and blurred and warm leaning dark at times but sometimesā¦ sometimes with some headphones and some music that sounds really, really fun. It isnāt bad, just different and I would never have known that if I hadnāt decided to get it despite all the negativity around their products on the forum I was on at the time. In the end my curiosity and a desire to make my own mind up caused me to get it although I still hesitate to say I like it.
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I have managed to run across exactly one bad product that no matter what i tried i could not get it to perform well, the Monoprice M560 planar magnetic HP. And even then its main problem was sibilance, the damn thing was just too sibilant to enjoy. Having said this it had the absolute best build quality and the headband is so comfortable i hope to someday swap onto a better set of ears so i can continue to enjoy the comfort it provides.
Other than that one singular experience i cannot honestly bad mouth one single inexpensive product i have used over the past many years. On the contrary i will happily go on record publicly and compliment the extremely good value to entertainment to price ratio every single inexpensive product has provided me.
Iām not some kind of high dollar making rich guy, i do ok but i work hard for every dollar and appreciate good value. I can grab at least 2 dozen pieces whose abilities we would openly poo-poo on this forum both in open and private discussions and i can string together a chain of equipment that will provide me joyous musical fidelity. There is nothing wrong w/ the sound if you are simply listening to some music, we hobbyist enthusiasts though will tear apart a piece of equipment due to our passion for the next hit of performance improvement.
There is a big difference between avoiding a product because it is poorly made, possibly junk and performs below its marketed value and avoiding a product because we know enough to recommend better performance for similar value 
. Yes? We also each have biases and preferences and choose to express them with passion based on our love of the hobby. I have been on forums where the fighting got so bad between peoples opinions that had they been in a room together they would have come to physical blows defending their opinions, experiences and knowledge.
The next closest ābadā product i have had experience w/ was a Shiit BF2, new, which burned up on me within a few weeks of purchase. Despite that incident i would recommend and own one in a heartbeat.
Heck, BOTH my Kennerton Headphones blew in the same fashion and i spent money and almost a year trying to get replacements. Iām hesitant in ever purchasing another one but damned if i donāt enjoy them both 
Every tube based product that has a high noise floorā¦ are they bad and to be avoided at all costs? Heck for a few hundred bucks you get to enjoy music, not everyone can afford multi-thousand dollar pieces. Thatās why itās called a noise floor and not blatantly referd to as annoying noisy hiss 
. I would likely avoid a product that makes annoying hiss but one that has a noise floor? Well thatās not too bad. Am i wrong and lying?
Maybe someone has something of value to add to this thread, personally i think electronics are so good nowadays itās uncommon to really find anything actually terrible that requires a refund or should not be on the market. I donāt know, maybe Iām too forgiving. Cars and appliances on the other hand i could bitch about for hoursā¦Everything seems to be produced to be disposable and needs replacement within a few short years, well below my standard of a product lasting decades so I can depreciate it and never have to replace it 
Edit to add, sorry for picking on inexpensive stuff. There is probably allot more high dollar value stuff that is crap and should be avoided for its performance to value ratio but i can only really speak to home theater stuff in that realm and that would not be pertinent here.
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Hello,
I would say it depends.
There are really manufacturers where I say I donāt like them because they donāt have a good product.
And there are manufacturers who only have a few products that stand out and are good.
But that was already the case in the 80s, not everything was good from Kennwood, Harman, Technics &coā¦
Apart from that,back then it was the magazines that suggested that today itās Youtube and other various platforms.
Often the whole suggestion of these platforms destroys a good synergy of the chain without most people noticing.
Just because people think the products are good.
In the end, the best thing is to buy or borrow the gold rule and see for yourself.
Since my power strip broke this week and I had to replace it, I can already say that I never thought that one part in the chain would have so much influence that it would destroy the whole synergy.
Of course, trying is also part of it to see if you can get something out of it again or not.
In this case it was easily 3 steps backwards that I personally took.
I donāt want to say that the manufacturer of this part sucks, it just doesnāt fit into my chain/system.
The power strip might fit better in another system but not in mine.
In the end, you have to be objective and honest with yourself about these things.
And be able to report nicely on what you liked and what you didnāt.
That is a much greater help for those who are interested than platforms that suggest how great everything is.
Sure, I have already ordered something, I was happy, unpacked it and then packed it up again after 2 hours.
I only do that if I donāt like the basic things.
Everything else I like to give a chance for a few days before I decide.
If I have too many doubts, I return it in the meantime.
There are a lot of Chinese products that I stay away from now.
But consciously, because I donāt like the way the support is handled.
In the meantime, I have had fewer problems with Us or Eu products where manufacturers were also open and told me openly that amplifier X with headphones X can still be limited.
But there are also a handful of devices from China where the support was good and also helpful.
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hannging out in the more budget space of things really show me whatās wrong with a lot of chifi. Now Im a big fan of the bdget space and what it has to offer but sub $100 space really brings out the worst of it and itās own community. The Whatās next? mentality really drives this section of the audiophile community , this is my number 1 annoyance with the space. Now, I understand when audiophiles try something and immediately look for something better. In the older more established spaces which are less chifi centric you automatically look for upper priced products that should hopefully best your existing cheaper product in one way or another. In the chifi space they end up looking for alternatives in the same price bracket and often wait for the next product to come out in that same price bracket that beats the existing product often looking for the x IEM ākillerā. Im all for competition in any space but what we end up with are sure better products than a few years ago but on the way to that 50 other IEMS have released that have beat the baseline product it that was initially on top and this doesnt happen years later in happens in weeks. What this leads to is companies constabntly trying to one up each other at a rapid pace not letting any products simmer in the space and find footing instead you realease your next better product in the same price bracket over and over again barely changing shit and beacuse you also lack discipline as a company being smaller QC issues happen, Batch variance is major. but the community gobbles even that shit out with people looking for the good batches and buying them out
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I guess too that I canāt really say the people who are enjoying the cheap end are doing it wrong. If they are happy with their gear and enjoying their music then they have got it right for their wants. Does my gear sound better? To me it does, but then I have invested time in learning how to hear the difference and I enjoy the gear as well as the music. The thing I dislike is the evangelical aspect that one finds where people want to say āthis is the one true way to enjoy itā
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I think my problem mainly lies in the companies releasing products to cater to this section of the community. And the lack of qc and support to cover their products.
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I can see that but then they are going to have to cut corners to get to that price and still make a profit.
I have an SMSL M100 that was working with our tv for quite a while and is currently doing stand in duty between an hdmi extractor and preamp and itās fine. Not great, it works. I donāt use it for music as it has a really annoying whine on the rca outs when nothing is playing but at that price thatās fair.
You get what you pay for and if you pay little then you will get flawed products with poor after sales and thatās true for everything. It either matters to you when you buy or not and thatās a personal choice in the end. I might consider it short sighted or misguided but then those people will think the same of me for spending so much for (what to them) is little gain. Plus we live in a disposable world. Why worry if your $100 dac only lasts a year or two? Just buy another one! I donāt think itās right but I canāt condemn people for that choice since it is a valid one.
Plus I think that the low cost end is a net positive. Itās how a lot of people get started. It was for me. About a fifteen years ago when I started to seriously use a PC for music I bought my first dac, a cheap SMSL thing. Bowled me over how good it made my mp3s sound and prompted me to actually rip all my CDs to flac. Cheap stuff is great for students, people with lower income or who just want to dabble and it is reasonable then that manufacturers want to cater to that market.
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I absolutely agree I myself was in this section and arguably still participate from Time to time in this segment and completely understand the appeal. The veterans in this forum who know my past know very well how deep I was in this market sector. While I aggree this is just another way to participate in the hobby in which Iām very happy about. I love how budget gear has improved over a short period of time and the hobby has become very accessible as well. But something with these companies as I take step back these days as I explore other hobbies leave me feeling dejected and annoyed.
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Pretty much a summary of the hobby lol. You get what you pay for has really held the most true out of anything here. The key thing is just figuring out what you want to actually pay for. Do you want something thatās all sound and no features or support? Do you want something thatās got amazing looks, pedigree, and incredible support but less sq per dollar? Do you want something inbetween? Thatās another good point actually, while I might value SQ over everything else, someone else might value other non sound aspects, that while equally justifying the cost in a way, arenāt what Iād personally consider good value and I might want to avoid, but could be the opposite for someone else
The higher end you go, the less corners are cut and less compromises are made, you have to cut corners somewhere at lower prices of course
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Speaking of that FM cloneā¦
Very good point. And dont count out past experiences with how they affect peopleās views. A few times i have had nicer fancier things, but they will fail, replacement comes in, they will fail. After a while youll just take whatever works even if its a step down in quality in the same price range.
Ie: my netgear router, its great when it works. It bricked itself once and it was covered under warranty. New unit is ok for a few years but it resets itself multiple times a day, and a few times per hour the throughout goes so low that conference calls think the connection is dead. I like that it was a high end router and had all fancy features but im so sick of it, i just want something that works.
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Personally most gear Iāve tried has some type of customer for it. Thereās just a few pieces of gear that I could not recommend to anyone in good faith based on my experience.
SPL S800 (very closed in sound. i thought it was defective and got another unit but the second unit, the right channel went out. Schiit aegir is betterā¦MSRP of $3700 is kind of a joke.)
Meze Empyrean (at MSRP, almost anything below it is better and everything above it is absolutely better in terms of SQ)
Calyx DAC 24/192 (extremely bad ESS edge in the treble)
CFA3 (super sharp transients with super short decay. Extremely ācleanā which means music cannot breathe at all)
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I do have conformation of it now being in the US, and will compare when I get it of course
Another thing is that a lot of the time in the high end, the experience with a brand is more personal, and you get to better know people in the industry, and that alone can skew peopleās sense of value as well. As in the idea of buying a product or brand to get closer to other people within that industry and behind that product, that can be seen as value for some as well (but that brings up other problems lol)
Ha, totally agree with the meze and spl (not heard the cfa3, but I have heard older kg diy designs and never really liked them either), but at the same time, I can understand how people like those, but canāt asy Iād ever recommend them to someone based off my own experiences either. Thereās clearly a market for all of them given their popularity, but itās def not me lol
To counter those a bit (even though I donāt really like them myself)
The meze has pretty amazing build and comfort even in comparison to others at or above itās price point and itās more almost consumer sound signature on crack and itās amp forgivingness can be appealing for some if thatās their priority over sound quality at that price point
The splās extremely dry and macro focus could be appealing, and I would also say itās a lot better with an spl preamp which does remove some of the negative aspects I associate with it (although still not personally a fan)
The diy gilmore designs are indeed super clean and dry, but then again some people really enjoy that (I donāt though), and some people just enjoy building diy amps to take a design they like and then customize it vs doing something from scratch, so thereās potential value in that as well
The 50 steps on waiting for imported items.
I think even if you list it the pros for these products, there are other products at the same price or cheaper that offer the same strength without some of the cons. I just canāt recommend to someone and still feel like a decent human being. No matter how in line that product might be with that person.
Yes, which is the main reason why they arenāt worth suggesting. But Iām moreso just giving reasons why I can see people liking them, rather than why they should buy them per se. So itās not really involving price to performance in that description, just noting why I personally think they got popular and still sell, not trying to give reasons why to actually consider them
I honestly think I might have summarized my thoughts on the empyeran best when someone asked me why I didnāt like them lol. Still think thereās merit to that headphone in isolation imo, but thereās so, so, many better options for that money. And thatās really the main point with this question of to avoid or not to avoid. Because itās more often the case that a product is priced to where itās not competitive with other options rather than just being flat out bad in isolation, so itās a lot more common people suggest to avoid things due to value/performance per dollar rather than genuinely sounding like shit in isolation imo
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