I predict it will end up with 100âs of EQ profiles for common headphones and the user will have no way to determine which ones meet there preferences.
If youâre going to do something like this you really need some sort of objective quality metric, or a way to evaluate new profiles against existing and rank them in some way other than popularity.
The problem with community ranking is that once a preset is a community favorite there is no way for a new better preset to get ranked high enough to ever get a following.
It depends on what their primary intent is and who they think theyâre going to serve more.
If itâs simplifying the process of entering EQ data that a listener might find somewhere browsing the internet (imagine âtap to add to your Roon settingsâ button etc) then this might work ok. If itâs for browsing a repository then yes potentially what you described can happen, but this also depends on adoption and how many actual EQs exist. if they manage information structure such that variations of a current EQ highlight the parent variation, that can mitigate it to some extent.
Plenty can go wrong with any launch or new feature idea. Itâs nice to see them give focus to these more niche elements relative to the big hobby itâs part of.
Iâm not necessarily a fan of it. Not because a cheap headphone might be in the mid range class, or a mid range headphone might annoy the high end.
But because it can also give the wrong impression to the listener, and also reinforce their biased attitude towards it and in the end the hobby will no longer be a hobby, but only the equipment will be measured.
Itâs okay if the listener has a preference for more bass, midrange or treble or wants to emphasise the lower octaves as long as itâs a healthy amount.
My personal opinion on this is that it will also dumb down the community, at least a part of it, because only performance, performance counts and not the things, getting to know the headphones, learning to hear and handle them and adapting the equipment if necessary.
For loudspeakers this is still okay, because here other things count like the room, sound absorption ect ectâŚ
Itâs a bad move by Roon because it opens the floodgates for people and creates a camp like the ASR guys with all the things that everyone has read about before.
Things are easier to listen to headphones in the shop or have them delivered to your home and decide for yourself if you like it or not without adding any extra things artificially.
In fact, I would have liked it for people who have general hearing deficits or tinnitus and to clear the way for them to learn it.
I donât really have an issue with EQ, I donât normally use it outside the SR-1A (where I do the baffle compensation digitally rather than with physical adapters).
You donât have to use it.
I donât see it having any real impact the hobby.
HuhâŚ
itâs already here.
Topping Centaurus just released - R2R collab with Holo Audio
So itâs either this or the spring 3 if you want a Remote/Input Switching capabilities (sorry Cyan 2). Though Iâd venture to guess the Cyan 2 is the better performer compared to the Centaurus. I guess weâll see what people say about it.
Edit: I guess the same R2R module that is in the Cyan 2 is being used in this Topping. So I guess the real sonic differences between these two will come down to how that module is implemented (Toppingâs internal SMPS vs Holoâs internal LPS, clock quality, input quality, etc.).
Iâm very intrigued, but itâll be quite the expense at $5k - $7kâŚ
Because of the way this shows, It looked like it said Bacon headphone and instantly I thought WTF?
Always been interested in the smyth realizer, that tries to do something similar.
Itâs all just a software problem at some level, compute is basically free at this point, but itâs one of the problems thatâs harder than you would think.
I donno, I mean youâve always been able to simulate speakers on headphones with crossfeed, and crossfeed isnât that popular because the only people who complain about headphones putting the soundstage in your head as a bad thing are speaker people, headphone people are used to it and donât care. (It never even occurred to me that the sound being in my head was a bad thing until I heard some audiophile speaker people complaining about it.) i was of the Sony Walkman generation, the first generation that grew up with headphones, and I think most people nowadays donât think about it as a problem. I remember when I got a Zen Can and tried out the xSpace (or whatever itâs called) feature for the first time and thinking why do people want the sound farther away from them? Seems less immersive to me.
In other words it seems like a solution looking for a problem.
There are a lot of headphone users whoâd rather be using speakers, but canât for many different reasons, myself included. Itâs just a different experience.
The issue is itâs complicated to do well, the idea of using HRTF to position audio, has been around since the early 90âs at least, and binaural recordings before that. The big issues is it canât really be one size fits all. The way we spatialize sound is heavily dependent on how sound is affected when it hits our specific head. So you get weird things depending on the model or head used for the binaural recording, things that are supposed to be in front of you sound like they are behind etc.
By capturing test signals with microphones in your ears, and using those to derive a model, you potentially work around that, because the model includes your head.
Of course this is doing more than that, itâs capturing the room, the reflections, and the speakers response. In addition to doing head tracking.
The issue is you canât capture things directly so the response of the microphones is in the mix, and youâre limited by the headphones used for playback.
Iâm not sure I need to have my TOTL headphones sound like speakers, but itâs an interesting technology. More so if they can separate the sound of the system from the effects of the shape of your head.
It does things more complex than just crossfeed, but yeah I see your point that if youâre typically a headphones first guy some might prefer the headphones experience over the speaker experience, but ultimately if it gets you a subjectively better experience with your music, why not? Plus itâs cool tech imo.
Immersive vs. expansive I guess. I always describe headphones as feeling as if being in the music, and speakers as if being in the room the music was recorded in. The are markedly different experiences but have always felt that only a 2 CH system could convince me enough to actually being there.
BTW you make it sound like headphones were invented along with the Walkman. lol
I used to plug pretty damned decent Grado HPs into my CD player back in the 80s for late night listening sessions in my old bedroom.
The Walkman came out in 1979. Before that headphones obviously existed, but it was the Walkman that put headphones in the hands of every child because the Walkman was the first technology that let you walk around with your music. I think people forget how completely revolutionary that was.
I might be wrong, there might be a big market of speaker people who want this tech. But I admit that I donât get it. Like why would you want to imitate a certain room? Isnât the point of room treatment and room correction to eliminate the room as best you can?
Iâve actually heard something similar a couple of months ago to a local Hi-Fi event:
Itâs an AMP/DAC with a digital crossfeed (what they call ELISA) to simulate as if the sound was coming from speakers, you also get a knob that regulates the angle at which speakers are positioned, goes from like 30 to 90 degrees. Price was about 9K euros if I recall correctly.
Iâve tested it on a pair of Spirit Torino Pulsar, Suvara and the HE-R10P.
Test Tracks Used (or at least the ones I remember):
It did a pretty good job with both the Pulsar (which I actually didnât like all that much on other amplifiers) and the Susvara and a really good job with the R10P.
We were in an open room with a good number of people coming and going so with open headphones the effect of the crossfeed was definitely there but harder to appreciate, but with the R10P it was really noticiable and was very very nice.
In short itâs like it improves the soundstage, adding extra height and a more âexpandedâ feel, and sometimes even âfixesâ some small âincoherenciesâ I had found on some tracks (like Strigoiâs Bathed in a Black Sun): the soundstage didnât have any unsual zone where the sound wasnât there as much as in other places, it homogenized it in a very good way, maintaing a certain organicness to it, while still retaining the original recording positionment and dynamics of the instrument.
I was pleasantly surprised because I was going to bet that it wouldnât react all that well to some of the rougher metal out there, mainly because of the mixing quality, but at worst it was an improvement in height (and slightly in depth) as well as a slightly more expanded soundstage, this with open headphones on certain tracks that arenât all that well made (hence the worst case scenario).
At best with open headphones it was a noticeable improvement in depth and size of the soundstage, especially in height, and an overall better feel of 3-dimensionality without things sounding distant.
With the closed R10P it was even more obvious and it was as with open headphones but to a an even greater degree, I donât want to say that it sounded like a open headphone but I never heard a closed headphone sound so open.
All of these without any artificiality in something like timbre or dynamicsâŚas Iâve previously written, at worst it was still doing something beneficial (even if slightly) to the sound, I couldnât really find anything that sounded âoffâ with the crossfeed on.
I think this technology will work best with closed headphones, I donât really see any reason as to not using the crossfeed with them (at laest based on what Iâve heard), while with open headphones it will be down to preference but I think it has a place in the market for what it does.
Also, they told me they just started working on a high end portable DAC/AMP with the same crossfeed technology in it and if it brings the same improvements it did with the R10P to IEMs or other closed headphones, then IMO they have a recipe for success, or at least something very very interesting and worth considering IMO.
Fostex th1000rp and th1100rp are now out, at $2500 and $2700 dollars respectively, they both use the same driver, closed and open backs.
Sorry for the super long post, I wanna have a discussion for these cans and I put it here instead of fostex because they just came out to public.
As a huge foster drivers fan I wondered if these new ones should go into my wish list or not because theyre not foster anymore, and the fostex th900ltd are one of my favorite headphones of all time.
Ive been reading about these since announced with much excitement and even more doubts. So my goal here is to find out if these headphones are for me.
Other than that the only review ive watched is from Mr Wave Theory because I know his taste in headphones very well, and im not sure he took enough time to listen like he used to still a fair amount.
Im trying to make this as readable as possible by ordering his thoughts because in the 33 minute video he goes over the same points a lot. And also to add context from my side as a regular watcher.
Waves taste is very very different from mine, and because I know that, his reviews end up helping me a ton. Also hes forward upper mid sensitive and annoyed by the slightest sibilance, neither of which affect me.
He names them the most jekyll and hyde cans hes ever listened, which just means that theyre very specialized cans instead of allrounders.
I actually prefer specialized over allrounders because I mix and match gear and make playlists. Wave is the exact opposite.
Value proposition, 2k headphone range is absolutely stacked and wave immediately mentions INCREDIBLE allrounders: HE1kSE, HEDD2, tungsten doble sided, and DCA E3 which he thinks compete w most $2k open backs anyway.
This is to make a point theres better, cheaper options for most people, specially ones that own 1 or 2 cans only than these fostex. He thinks $2700 is too high immediately.
He made a way worse mistake on his adx5000 review, when he stated several times that the price should be lowered by half to $1k cause the $2k price braket, insane take.
The adx5000 being a very very specialized can was a big issue but it wasnt the main one.
Sadly, even though he picked a ton of expensive gear some very good ones like the baltic 3 and z10e, the adx5k is ultra hard to pair with amps and he completely missed hearing their potential at all with the chosen amps.
Even a $1600 mass kobo with a random dap would have done a better match than what he used.
âŚThis I think is very similar to what happens on this review, but I have no solid proof and he clearly liked these fostex a lot less than the adx5000.
First he mentions the RP series do planars different than other companies like hifiman, audeze, dca, etcâŚ
By saying the drivers being 45*45mm makes them smaller than most planars out there. No mention on why this matters, dont think it does.
Then build and comfort is amazing, still propietary fostex connector tho.
Test gear -
Roon endpoints:
chord 2go + 2u ddc
UltraRendu + singxer su6 or direct usb to other dacs
Dacs used:
Schiit bf2/64
Geshelli J2S akm4499 with burson vivid v7 ops and swagman 12v LPS
Berkeley alpha series 2
Lampi baltic 3
LAIV harmony
Amps: Quicksilver HA, Erzetich Perfidus, chord hugo 2, LTA z10e.
No mention of tubes but im sure theyre APOS ray because sponsored.
A bit odd choices considering how many amps he has but seems varied more than enough for any headphone that ISNT specialized. I know he likes these amps with the th900 but cmon.
SOUND:
âThe combination of the tuning, dynamics, pacing, rhytm, timing, resolution, detail retrieval make it excellent for acoustically oriented music, particulary jazz and some types of orchrestal and classicâ
I absolutely love those genres with with either a slight v shape, a strong v shape, grado style diffuse field and th900/ltd tuning.
âOutside of those (genres) get them off my head⌠if youre into rock, metal, all of their subgenres, pop, hip hop, edm, anything like that; for THESE ears its a hard pass, get them off my headâ
Damn bro thats every genre
âThats why I mean Jekyll and Hyde, instrumental jazz thats good, this can be utterly wonderful for some classical genres like string quartets and that sort of things, its ok for instrumental, classical and orchrestral generally but anything outside of that just forget itâ
Hes entitled to his opinions, thats true.
He goes on again to what he did in the ATH adx5000 and AWKG videos, he says these headphones were tuned with east asians in mind. +1 I love japanese tuning and and asian music.
ATH explained him by email the tuning was made with japanese audience in mind, which he interprets as: forward mids, a bit nasal vocals because asians have thinner voices, a small dip in the lower mids, more treble amount (all of those he hates) but said, if japanese are used to this then theyre just not for me, but that was for the ATH cans, the fostex earned his rage.
And I want to make clear again, most of the problems he had with those ATH came from bad matchup with gear, he didnt have to like the cans but he could have not shit on them if he paired them better, which again theyre hard to pair but cmon.
So he identifies these fostex as japanese tuned but worse.
âThe sub bass is not great and its rolled off⌠not great etcâ this is exactly what happens when the w5000 and adx5000 are poorly matched, theyre so hard to match because like 1 or 2 out of 10 amps kills their subbass.
This time I have no solid proof theyre poorly matched but thats what it seems like.
Dont buy specialized headphones if you dont have specialized gear for them.
Although maybe he is right this time and they fucked up the bass butâŚ
Fostex of all companies, on a planar magnetic? Very light and rolled off bass? Imma have to give fostex the benefit of the doubt here over Mr Wave.
âIt comes across as very bright, its also quite lean and kinda in the middle of the wet dry spectrum⌠a bit thin and a bit leanâ
I can believe this one, maybe a warmer amp with the baltic 3 could have helped? The amps he used are not warm by any means, neutral-ish, and the tubes were also not warm or very good as far as im concerned.
âIt has a forward upper midrange and lower treble, and its a feature of the sound, its fatiguing and gratingâ
Yup Im a sucker for forward upper mids.
For the lower treble he uses an analogy that everything has a sharp edge around it, the same way a video/photo editor would add sharpness thats another feature.
Id really like to hear this, sounds like a very unique feature.
âSibilance in âŚ(all) genresâ I think he means revealing, but I dont suffer from this because sibilance doesnt hurt me unless its extreme like beyer t90.
âLets talk about the things it does get right because there are a fewâ
Very good: dynamics, liveliness, snap on snare drums, super fast on cymbals - even with rapid fire jazz crashes attack and separation without being too dry, resolution, detail retrieval, room recreation/reverb.
Bass is also dynamic and lively, very good texture, got some punch but not a whole lot of slam (mentions the shangri la jr system had the same quality)
âTheres good physicallity on the low end but more in the mid bass, but theres not a lot of presence, fullness, weight on the sub bass that comes with that punch to get it slamâ in short sub lacks weight.
Still find hard to believe a planar fostex would have this problem but ill give it the benefit of the doubt.
Are OK: Spatial presentation, tridimensionality, holography, soundstage size, imaging, presentation, layering.
I really like all of these on the th900ltd, this is probably compared to like he1kse which I do actually have personal gripes with, I dont like egg shaped spatial recreation.
âEven though I love jazz on these, as soon as a vocalist comes on forget, sibilance, shoutiness, honkyness, hollowness, wrong timbre; but instrumental jazz amazing. And theres some magic quality to it that is superbâ
Goddamnit wave, my bills are piling up, dont do this to me man, I really want these now.
Then he compares with the other 2k headphones I mentioned before which is kinda pointless, anything instrumental jazz is better on the fostex, anything else sucks and is way more expensive.
Closing thoughts
âIt is a specialist among specialistsâ
Yeah probably is but I highly doubt it can only do 1 genre and 2 subgenres.
Its fun how this video being so harsh made me want these headphones so much more, this is extremely bad for my finances.
Sounds like my exact type of deal, but I also want a Final d8000 pro so bad and I wonder if they overlap in some ways, my wishlist is already stacked and Final are also launching their new versions of d8000.