LOL, you missed the part where I said I would have to sell everything and start it all from scratch. System synergy, gotta match stuff up if you want to make beautiful music out of the speakers….
Hello SA, been some time since I posted, lot of turbulence in personal life and haven’t been able to listen a lot lately. Now that I know that I’ll be in my apartment for foreseeable future and have some free space open up, I want to explore speakers and see if something could work in my room.
Room and placement
Forgive my poor drawing but I figured this might help get an idea of what I have to work with in terms of room dimensions. The ceilings are popcorn (which might help with acoustic damping I think) at 8ft height and floors are vinyl but the main listening area has a large rug and I can cover with more rugs if needed. The main thing is that the room is not closed and I have kind of demarcated around the 20ft line beyond which it opens up in a dining area and a kitchen to one side and a bedroom on the other eventually to the front door. I also have 2 floorstanding speakers (B&W 683S2) that I use with my TV so these new speakers will be exclusively for music. I have marked them in blue where I currently plan to put them (Source is where I have my dac, streamer, amps, etc.) and the other blue thing is a chair that I intend for listening in.
Source
I currently have a Mojo Mystique X SE dac but I might upgrade this or add a second dac next year, likely a totaldc or Rockna (I also have a Rockna WD NET).
I really want to stick with SET amps for speakers. I currently have my Studio B and also have a DNA Stellaris on order that I have been thinking of changing to Special with speaker outs. Another option is to cancel the Stellaris (due sometime June-July 2024) as I now have Egoista which takes care of pretty much all my headphones. If I cancel Stellaris, that could free up ~15-20k for amp budget but I don’t know many good speaker SET amps (besides some Decware ones which would take another couple years to get and I would rather not wait that long).
Speakers
If I stick to SET amps, I am looking for high efficiency speakers. I had asked about these a while ago in Nearfield thread and got some suggestions. I am demoing Devores (O/96 and O/baby) this weekend so pretty excited about those. Others on my list are Audio Note AN-Js. Budget is about 15-20k but don’t necessarily have to spend that much, especially since this would be my first proper speaker system.
So I guess my questions are:
- is the space too restrictive? should I bother with speakers at all or just keep upgrading my headphone gear?
- is my restriction to SET amps too limiting?
- what other amps should I be looking at?
- what other speakers should I be looking at?
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I suspect what you are specifying here isn’t SET amps, but more restrictive than that i.e. low powered SE DHT based amps.
I own a pair of 130W/Channel SET amps, though they don’t use DHT’s, and you can buy SET amps considerably stronger than that. Even with DHT’s you can get into 211 and 845 amps that will put out 20-40W, but higher powered tube amps tend to get expensive, because the transformers get expensive, and in the case of 211’s and 845’s running at 1000+V the power supplies and passive components get expensive.
I personally would worry more about the overall sound of the system you want, rather than the technology to get there, going with a Tube pre amp and SS power amps, might let you use a speaker you like more than limiting yourself to low wattage amps.
It’s so dependent on what you listen to and listen for, coupled with what will work in your space.
Find some stores/shows and go listen to speakers, and don’t limit yourself based on some preconceived notion that DHT amps are somehow better, it’ll give you a better idea what you value, you have to pick something first, and I think speakers especially if you start considering single driver, open baffle, horns etc. are probably the most polarizing in the experience.
Bear in mind most speaker setups don’t sound great at shows, they are rarely well set up, but they will give you a good indicator of the overall sound.
FWIW and this is just a guess, your probably better off with the speakers on the long wall, you’d want them forwards of the TV and it’s speakers, if you have deliberate listening sessions. marking the ideal position on the floor with tape and moving them out for listening can be a good compromise. But it limits the maximum size/weight of the speakers.
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Ah yes, thanks for correcting me. I indeed meant DHT based amps and it is just based off what I liked with headphones which is not necessarily an indicator with speakers.
Yeah I’ll be doing this for next few weeks. I typically listen to jazz, blues and a lot of metal.
I did consider that positioning and will try that, the only worry that I had was it would leave roughly about ~6ft of space between speakers and and listener at best.
There isn’t anything wrong with 6’ of space if that’s all you’ve got to work with, may main concern for you would be that given the TV and the other pair of speakers for the TV you’re restricting your speaker positioning and you’re going to have a huge reflective surface between the 2 Ch. speakers, not something yo want.
I thing that in your scenario the short wall works well, you’ve got easily 7’ or more between the speakers which will give you over 2’ feet from the side walls and would allow you to have an open space behind you in your sitting area. The window is a natural split and since you can put curtains or something to diffuse the sound, it would be much better than the TV sitting between the speakers.
When you say 15 to 20K are you talking amp/pre and speakers? I would look at choosing a speaker first and then choosing the optimal amp for those speakers rather than what you’re doing by committing to an amp architecture and then going to find speakers for that. It would be harder and perhaps more limiting to do it that way.
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Right, this was my thought with windows to just put some heavy curtains.
Yeah I am starting to realize that. I was just hoping to be able to keep the Studio B and use it for speakers and not sell it since I don’t really use it with headphones anymore but it is too limiting indeed.
The 15-20k was initially for speakers only and a similar budget for amp/pre.
Key words here are that you are in an apartment, which to me, reasonably means, you will do most of your listening under low volume conditions. This is my assumption and a type of listening i understand, value and have some experience with.
Your budget and equipment choices also suggest you have some experience in this hobby.
Do yourself a favor and take a look at this blog, I adore this kind of equipment, i have had great experiences with a few pieces mentioned and you don’t necessarily have to break the bank amd thus you can spend more on speakers 
You have room enough to go both ways in that space and it’s easy enough to move both the chair and the speakers forward and back to accommodate playback ability once you get going and it is perfectly OK to play around with both the short and long wall to find your preferences. 
i have spent many hours listening to Devore and Audio note speakers in more than one showroom. The O93 & 96 seemed to be very picky with placement and IMO really came to life in larger rooms with tall ceilings.
The new baby O may be something to check out for your space. 
Sorry no experience with that particular speaker.
The Audio Note tended to require corner loading more often than not to get into their groove.
I have spent many hours in this place.
Check out Charney Audio, i’m digging them…
In an apartment, a nice pair of standmounts, top quality speakers that can be enjoyed at lower and middle of the road volumes are also not a bad idea. Nothing wrong with high quality amplifiers that provide some good power, they can be tube based to add that little bit of extra something that some folks chase after. You could also get a nice solid state amplifier or mono-blocks and add a tube based pre-amplifier but this may put you beyond your budgetary constraints.
Good luck in your Grand Adventure, I’m so excited to see which direction you choose to go in, i enjoy living vicariously through the expenditures of others on nice stuff 
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That’s largely true, I don’t intend on getting kicked out anytime soon! I could listen to some jazz and blues a little loud perhaps, my building is pretty good with sound isolation but nothing too crazy, especially not my typical distorted music.
I just came back from auditioning the O/96 and O/baby and the 96s were pretty kickass. I really want them now but your comment about tall ceilings is making me wonder…and the fact that the dealer can’t them for another 8-10 months 
He does have a pair of O/baby in stock and although they sounded pretty good too, now that I’ve heard the 96, I don’t know if I can go back but they might sound better in my room.
One thing that really stood out to me was the difference in dynamic range on some Muddy Waters songs on 96 and babys. It wasn’t even a comparison. When I mentioned to the dealer, he said it might not even matter in my room since its smaller. I wish I could demo them in my room but then I don’t even have a proper speaker amp yet. So maybe I should start with something smaller like O/baby and build a system around that and then try something bigger down the line in future as an upgrade? Still exploring other options as well.
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If you got even a semi decent price for the babys you’ll likely be able to sell them later on with little loss. I’m surprised he has one available for immediate delivery but maybe things have changed since I auditioned them last year.
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I considered that as well. It’s just a coincidence, he said he usually orders a couple ahead of time and has one left. He happened to just sell the last O/96 last weekend and thought his next 2 were coming in 2 months but then he called John to confirm and he said 10 months instead…
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I VERY much like the O/96’s, if you could audition them for a week in your own space or if the dealer has a room of similar dimensions he could put them in for you…
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Unfortunately not a similar room at all, his was a very big room with quite tall ceilings. He said he actually had a very hard time getting it to sound good because of how big and tall it was. Our voices were quite boomy when we were just talking
I know for a fact that people use them in all sorts of various sized rooms, i have heard them in smaller rooms, my own dealer has allowed me many hours to audition them in a room much smaller than yours. Unfortunately i have also heard them in larger rooms and for $10k+ yeah…that’s when you really feel you got your money’s worth. YMMV, they hold their value well, and sell stupidly easy used as long as you can package them up and get them out easily enough 
I would not feel uncomfortable getting them and growing beyond them a year down the road, minimal loss.
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I had been looking for this link, leaving it here for folks to experiment
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@karangovil
Possible interest or research
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Those look pretty cool! I think I remember this guy selling one of his Studio B’s and WE tubes on head-fi a while back (I think I remember that setup). Certainly something to look into
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So I have a pair of kef lsx that’s been sitting on the shelf (for decoration) which I haven’t used in ages. Apparently they fixed the main issue I had through an update, that is it wouldn’t remember its dsp settings after being woken up from standby.
On a whim, I decided to pull it out and see if I could use it again for casual use after the update, which did fix it. The sound isn’t going to win any awards (even with the dsp), and I still feel the same after all this time. Given the all in one solution that these speakers aim for, I shouldn’t be that surprised. It’s obviously a big compromise having all those electronics, features, and tiny form factor within the speaker.
But I had more of those gingko mini archs to place on the speaker stands I bought for the kef, and it definitely improved but my impression remained the same (ie. indifferent). Then I put more archs on the speaker itself and my impression made a complete 180, enough to where I’d actually listen to music on these lol. I’m quite impressed how much performance was squeezed out from this all in one solution of a speaker. I also tried the Herbie’s stabilizers in tandem with the gingko, and although subtle, really hit that sweet spot in terms of tonal balance.
Anyway, isolation isn’t exactly a new thing here since we discuss it more often than any other place, but I just thought I’d share an additional experience.
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The drivers are really good, but not what he claims best 
Price is okay (drivers are alone a pair -7.8k USD).
Voxativ(Germany/Berlin) I’ve seen some builds here in Germany. Extremely expensive and very, very sensitive to matching cabinet and amp-pairing. Had also tested a pair of the entry level (6k a pair), too complicated to handle. Same with Lowther…
I’m always very cautious for this kind of (over)priced full range speakers! Would highly recommend to stop by some experienced DIYer in your area. You would be surprised, what like a Sonido SFR175A or Cube Audio Fc8 sound like, for a fraction of that price.
Sorry, biased as I’ve listened to several highly unique full range speakers from DIYers, which I was blown away (talking in the range of max. 5k builds). Its all about cabinet design and amp pairing, much more time consuming.
If someone seriously interested, you need to stop by in the diy forums and read through. Just my personal advice & experience Also some people will not like the sound, because it sounds to natural and if wrong Pre/Amp you will not like it.
Here in Germany we have a pretty strong DIY/full range community.
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You’re not wrong as these full range speakers will rely on the amp so much, impedance as well at power output are critical. And yeah when you buy the driver you’re trying to buy a “known quantity”. But so much is cabinet or lack of cabinet in the case of open baffel.
Full range low wattage is something that is very much a chain, (that chain includes the room) much more so than other 2 channel systems. Interesting to see these don’t have a phase plug compared to the Voxative drivers. The basic construction philosophy seems very similar but they diverge in the wood cone and obviously the variety of magnets, field coil and winding Voxative offers.
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Which DIY forums do you enjoy and are any in English that you visit. I am a fan of single source speakers and open baffle designs and look forward to either purchasing more or possibly doing my own build in the future. Always looking for the experience of others