Audiophile peer pressure and the joy of gear

General Discvssions & Theory/Vnderstanding
1

I was interested to ask this question here, since I feel it will get thoughtful answers. One of the things that keeps me from generally interacting on large forums is the sense of audio enjoyment being something with an advancement path. We talk about entry level, mid-fi and high end which in themselves are meant to describe the meeting of cost and quality. In the competitive nature of the internet this then becomes a judgement even though we don’t mean it to.

For example I know, purely going by the gear people discuss, that my disposable income is lower than most. That obviously limits what I can buy and means that rather than try things out and moving on I tend to spend months considering a purchase, comparing, reading up and so on. That can be a very enjoyable process for me! My personal high end is very solidly mid-fi. My two “expensive” items, an RNHP and Focal Elegia took me a few months to save for. Most of my gear is pretty “entry level”. Don’t get me wrong, I am very happy with it! But I also can find myself feeling like I need to justify not having “better” things when I read or take part in a discussion. I have thirty years or more of active interest and engagement with audio equipment and yet I can still sometimes feel like my knowledge is not worth sharing.

Sometimes what for me is meant as an end point is going to be “entry level”. It can feel like it isn’t worth being hyped about or shared in posts. To be clear, this is not something that other people are actively “doing”, I think it is a side effect of how we talk about gear, about “progression”, “upgrades” and so on. I think that it is likely off putting for some, especially younger people, and creates a barrier for getting into audio gear as a hobby. It is definitely off putting to most women - not all of us are comfy in overtly competitive groups.

My questions are: how can a community avoid creating this kind of peer pressure; how can we find ways to share and encourage new hobbyists to have joy with what they find and use and how do we discourage the sense of having to constantly chase chimeras whilst still supporting people in their explorations and enjoyment?

16 Likes
2

I have similar thoughts as well, so i interact the most on this forum haha. But I feel there are lots to say and knowledge to learn on all tiers, and its best to set your own pace and how far you wanna go into this hobby. My hobby is listening to music. There is def a “chase” attitude in the gear hobby and I’ve had to dig myself out of that attitude before. It’s funny when people call ya crazy when you are at a comfortable standpoint or even when you go back to lower tier gear lol. I just try to stay self aware with my own fun, and sometimes I really gotta talk myself out of purchases. Your rnhp and elegia combo I’m sure is dope. I’m glad you enjoy it.

6 Likes
3

Peer pressure maybe isn’t the best word…but desperately wanting to upgrade when being surrounded by people with more expensive gear does give one the upgrade itch.

I think what you will find out is that on this forum, is that even folks with expensive gear still have and enjoy entry level and mid-fi level gear. I.E…I just was listening to my Koss KSC75 and still listen to my HD650 often. Sure, my Auteur and Diana V2 are amazing, but I still very much enjoy the former.

Upgrades and end game is more determined by ones income, which can change for the better or for the worse at any given moment. As long as you are happy with what you have, that’s all that matters. At the end of the day, the only person that has to live with your gear is you, not anybody else. :slight_smile:

3 Likes
4

I think the easiest way is to just have people care about the person they are talking too, a fair a amount of people I’ve seen on forums just simply aren’t interested in the perspective of the person they are having a discussion with (and only there to throw out whatever suggestions they feel without taking the person they are talking to into account)

for a slight rant click here

It absolutely drives me nuts when I see people who respond to asking for help posts without putting any thought into it, asking questions to gain further info, or elaborating/explaining why they said what they said. Going into a thread only to mention something they like in a budget range without making any attempt to better understand the needs for who is asking for help and offering any insight into why they said what they said really isn’t all that helpful in the end, and can be detrimental in some cases. You may find that after actually talking with people their needs are either actually much higher or much lower from what they think, if it’s a newer member to the hobby there’s a good chance they don’t really know what they are looking for yet or what makes sense for them yet anyways.

Like an example might be a new member asking something like “Looking for headphone under 1000” with not much extra information given. Imo if someone immediately responds to that thread just mentioning a headphone without asking for extra info, clarification, goals, past experiences, what have you, I think that’s a bad response and it shows how much that person truly cares about giving good and tailored help to people who need it (doesn’t care that much)

Or also people trying to push others to go way above what they are actually looking for. It’s like people trying to push some beginners to start off far into midrange or even high end, I don’t think that’s a wise decision or in the best interest of the person starting out, even if they did have the budget or were willing to spend that much

Getting sidetracked lol

Having people who are genuinely interested in both having a productive discussion with and helping someone out leads to them better understanding both the needs and situation of someone imo. There’s times where trying to push someone to make the step up or continue the chase makes sense, and there’s times where it doesn’t either, and that’s kinda just something people have to feel out as it’s different for everyone.

The price thing and chasing the dragon is hard, because at least for me I’ve always considered audio to be a journey, and one that likely won’t stop by your own will, moreso other restrictions like financial, lifestyle, time, space, etc. More money typically does equal better sound if done right (you get what you pay for holds pretty true in most cases, audio is no exclusion to that imo). And with this being the case, different people will view audio in different lights, and how far people will go will typically depend on the above. It’s something the individual person has to figure out, what’s something they can consider a reasonable stopping point, where they are satisfied and don’t really have the itch to change and swap things around, or it becomes unreasonable to do that

It’s hard to get rid of that itch, that’s what leads to people constantly selling and buying or side grading to compensate for that and hear something new. I personally think the best way to get rid of that itch is when you find a setup that you feel reasonably satisfied with, just stop looking into the audio community for a few months and enjoy that setup, see how you feel afterwords, kinda cement that satisfaction in your mind. Always both assume and accept that there’s better above, but also accept you don’t need to go that high either if it doesn’t make sense. There’s excellent audio products throughout the entire range, what range you lie in doesn’t really matter in the end as long as you are enjoying yourself

9 Likes
5

I do completely agree with this, it’s why I felt asking the questions here would work.

I do want to be clear that this is less about my particular feeling. I’m old enough and stubborn enough to know when I am being silly… most of the time! It’s more a general question about audio communities. I felt it would make more sense if I gave my own experience as context :slightly_smiling_face:

2 Likes
6

This is a great and thought-provoking question that everyone should ask themselves. It’s a difficult process and one that can spiral out of control, mainly due to the subjectivity of this hobby. The multiple voices don’t help, such as reviewers and advice that may not align with yours.

The main thing is: unfortunately, there is not a linear path. It’s not like a PC, where you upgrade each piece until you have the ultimate battle station. Tastes and synergy can make it where an upgrade can make you take a few steps back.

Really, one has to listen for themselves and I would try to resist the pressure because everyone has a different definition for value (quoted by @Polygonhell). If you have saved for a while and cherish said item, enjoy the shit out of it. You deserve it. No need to feel like you need to upgrade. It’s a rare thing to enjoy where you are.

I know it’s an ironic time to suggest this, but what helped me is having someone that equally enjoys this passion visit and give me feedback. It allowed me to reaffirm that what I have is special and settle in. It also confirmed that what I did with selling off my unneeded items and consolidated was a smart decision too. Lastly, it give me another perspective and another person to try to put strange feelings and sounds into vocabulary that helped me identify strengths and weaknesses and characteristics that mattered to me.

Ranty, but I hope it helped.

7 Likes
7

I think this is often said about online forums and often over looked too. Can’t agree more. Advice without anyone showing off is not always easy to find. At the risk of flattering some of you :wink: , one of the things I took account of posting this was knowing the kind of advice I’ve seen some of you give on the other place has always seemed sincere to me.

4 Likes
8

I am definitely feeling this. Maybe that’s one answer? As much as it is fun to encourage new toys it isn’t often said “Oh you have cool toys already! Nice!” I do like when advice givers start by asking what people like about the things they already have. I think also advice to not get a new toy is less popular as it doesn’t fit with the whole competitive thing? I think newbies also get an unrealistic impression of how much difference a new toy will make too. I think a lot of "hype trains’ are born of this.

1 Like
9

Well said, All, and great subject @Gothique Being one of the older ones here, I sometimes remind myself that I started out with 78 rpm records that often sounded like
rice crispies…and what we have today is all absolutely amazing!! The tone here is one of
helping one another and I enjoy that very much.

4 Likes
10

I guess another thing to mention is that a reasonable community can create reasonable expectations and goals for people involved, and I think that can really change how people feel about their current position in this hobby. A community that avoids a lot of the nonsense like overinflated hype or the fotm syndrome can be helpful in reducing the amount of unnecessary desire to get something new, and to make any changes or upgrades more meaningful. As mentioned above too, asking people about their current thoughts and experiences too and reaffirming what they might be enjoying is a good way to decrease dissatisfaction as well.

It’s hard to read impressions/thoughts/reviews and not get excited for something, but I think if those impressions/thoughts/reviews are coming from a grounded perspective vs something specifically written to push people toward something it makes a difference. Another side note but I personally prefer giving people information they can use to make their own decision vs trying to make a decision for them, because the only person who can know the best option for yourself happens to be yourself lol (guess the goal is to inform not decide for)

Also the overall goals for communities can matter as well, I think some communities with unrealistic goals such as finding the absolute best (“objectively” or subjectively), or communities that revolve basically around a hive mind or one central idea don’t lend to creating a good place to feel satisfied. I think a good amount of reasonable diversity + the goal of more just enjoying the hobby to its fullest/seeking most personal enjoyment are both more attainable and also lead to more productive discussion and more general satisfaction within the hobby

Cause that’s really what it all comes down to imo, personal satisfaction. That’s both the most rewarding and easily obtainable goal you can have in this scene imo, as that’s really what matters in the end. You are creating a setup that recreates music in a way you enjoy the most, not someone else, so make sure you take steps to focus on yourself vs trying to take someone else’s path

10 Likes
11

Listening to a chain with great synergy and having that initial “wow” moment. What you realize that you’re at a level sonically that you haven’t experienced before is what the hobby is about. The thing is that you can have those moments at the $100 level, the $500 level, the $1000 level, the $2500 level… see what I mean? There’s always another level but in my experience the “wow” feeling is the same eye opening experience. More money doesn’t get you more joy, it simply move you to the next level of “wow”.

I’ve often said that a BHC/SB with a pair of HD600 which can be had for relatively cheap by audio standards is as enjoyable an experience as there is in the hobby.

Chasing the next “wow” gets progressively more expensive but it’s no better a feeling than the first couple of times you had that wow moment.

Lastly there are ways in which you can move up the audio chain for pennies on the dollars if you’re smart about your buyin/selling/negotiating/bartering.

6 Likes
12

One important advice that @M0N mentioned that I wanted to reiterate is knowing your audience and empathizing. It’s an awkward thing to share, but knowing the budget and use case is very important to giving effective advice. I know I am not going to give the same recommendations to someone that is fresh out of college vs. someone working in the prime of their career vs. someone retiring.

Lastly, I would say one goal we have for this forum is to avoid the hivemind as well. Everyone following along one particular impression because it was hyped by one person/reviewer. It’s certainly more interesting and helpful to get different perspectives.

6 Likes
13

I like this. Something I find odd on many forums is how little people talk about the music. I started out with a hand me down turntable, speakers and amplifier and I loved the shit out of that set! Used it until they all stopped working. Sometimes I feel like people miss out on this now? We have so much choice and so many options it can be hard to focus. The reason I bought the RNHP was how much people who owned it seemed to love it and how much they wanted to share that enthusiasm. That means more to me personally than anything technical! I think online people often shy away from the truly subjective aspects because it tends to lead to more arguments than a number or a measurement. But isn’t listening, music and sound subjective anyway? I love me some crunchy, messy bass and I think that is entirely down to that turntable set and the records I had to play on it.

This is very true. Do you think newbies get told about that? Should there be advice on how to deeply appreciate the existing as well as how to chase the wow?

3 Likes
14

The previous mentions of hivemind group think, flavor of the month and hype trains are 3 big reasons why most other forums I belong to become less enjoyable over time. I also think that respecting one’s opinion no matter how much it differs from your own goes a long way. When situations like that come up, there is always a really shitty thing that ends up happening…people start to form cliques and try to force their opinions. It’s actually quite funny to me personally seeing grown adults act like petulant children, but that is common in this hobby.

Thankfully, the folks on this forum have good intentions and the members here are courteous and respectful…I only hope it remains this way for a long time. :slight_smile:

7 Likes
15

To be honest for myself I listen to music a shit ton and have put a ton of resources into finding and getting music I like, but it’s also something I can’t figure out how to talk about lol. I have no idea how to really discuss or describe music so I just listen to it and don’t mention it much lol. I’d assume it’s the same for a few other people here. Not sure why I have no problems talking about things that reproduce music but can’t describe or talk about the music all that much myself, but at least that’s the way it is for me. It’s an equally important aspect of this hobby (some might say more than the gear lol, but I think 50/50 is a fine place to be)

For sure lol, for example for headphones it’s exploded since the 2000s, previously you had like perhaps 10 options that were worthwhile for better than consumer gear, now it’s just exploded as personal audio has gained so much dominance in the market (due to changes in overall society)

Which makes no sense anyways. IMO measurements are actually subjective most of the time given how they are used. Because you can have measurement data that you take (actually objective, let’s ignore measurement methodology for simplicity lol), but the moment you interpret that data and say higher sinad = better or whatever, you now have voiced a subjective opinion on objective data. IMO it really is just a waste to try and objectify a hobby that is almost purely subjective. Go try and objectify art while you are at it. Nothing wrong with trying to use objective data to explain what you are hearing, but there is a problem to use objective data to determine what you hear. Use measurements to back up your listening, not listening to back up your measurements if you have to bring it up

Yep

6 Likes
16

While this can certainly be an expensive hobby don’t immediately assume this. There is a sort of “selection bias” happening in forums. By this I mean people tend to post more when they are buying new gear. So it may seem like people are spending more on average than is actually the case.

3 Likes
17

Also it fails to take into account how far people actually go into the hobby, some people actually stay reasonable and balance multiple things, but I know for myself audio is my only hobby and my main priority, so I tend to live pretty cheaply for the rest of my life in exchange for more audio to the point where most people wouldn’t live like that lol

2 Likes
18

That’s a good point, thank you.

1 Like
19

I’ve seen this thrown around, but it’s really not surprising, the forum is a collection of like minded people, and although we all clearly listen to and enjoy music, it isn’t necessarily the same music. I really don’t have an issue finding music I want to listen to, and I’m not all that interesting in sharing my musical tastes with others, who may well not like the same things.

The commonality here and on other forums is the desire to discus the equipment and it’s impact on listening, so that’s what you see.

It’s not as many seem to infer about being more concerned about the equipment rather than the music, just a simple function of the group of people you are “gathered with” are more likely yo share your desire to optimize your listening experience, than they are your taste in music.

7 Likes
20

There is nothing wrong with being excited by a piece of gear entrylevel or high end.
No one should spend more on gear than they are comfortable spending, it’s one of my pet peaves on some forums where people Hype gear, based on nothing but hype and people end up buying less than ideal gear (it’s usually not terrible) that is for them expensive to feel they are a part of the group.
Usually they then join in hyping it up for everyone else, because that mentality is self reinforcing.
THX Amps spring to mind, as an obvious example.

Part of the problem in the hobby today vs the 80’s and 90’s is that most people getting into the hobby don’t know what good sounds like, there is no easy way to hear a great system short of buying it.
I do think one result of that is the tendency to jump from one piece of equipment to another, without in many cases meaningful improvements in the overall chain.

I had the advantage when I started that I could compare my system to at the time to 1/2 a dozen other similarly priced systems other students in the dorms owned and we would all go to the local hifi store and listen yo gear, that realistically we wouldn’t be able to afford for a decade or more.

5 Likes