Audiophile peer pressure and the joy of gear

Agree with this so much. I still need to remind myself of it from time to time because enthusiasm is catching. It’s always good to be reminded of it too.

This is the internet in general isn’t it? Everything is either amazing or terrible. Nothing can be quite good or good enough. I struggle with that and buying audio gear. I would be much more at ease to hear “this thing will make a minor difference but you might enjoy it” than “this is amazing, you need it!” but I guess that’s not so much in vogue these days. I suspect because instead of professional journalists we get more information from influential individuals, from video rather than print. More democratic but perhaps less thoughtful? How much does the modern influencer culture affect the idea of always chasing the next big thing?

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The general reviewer scene has just gone to shit tbh, it’s now more people that are either entertainers or inexperienced hobbyists looking to make a name for themselves. Also reviews are now at this point so pushy and focused on driving sales (regardless of if the person pushing them gets a direct cut or not) it’s really hard to take anything seriously anymore. Reviews now are made to target the lowest common denominator not the dedicated enthusiast, since it’s less work for them and drives the most sales/traffic/publicity. Also with how a lot of these new reviewers rely on content creation for their main income, they kinda have to make sure they maintain that even if their quality or accuracy of reviews takes a hit. I enjoyed (and trusted) older reviews from established publications or some of the more hidden write ups from long time members in the community, but both of those have gone away in favor of the modern YT reviews or whatnot. It’s like everyone now has to have some underlying motive or something in order to post a review, personally I most enjoy just reading people’s general impressions and experiences with something since at this point it gives much more information and is more genuine than most reviews

I just at this point compare my own thoughts to what currently exists for popular reviews of what I have, and almost all of them strongly miss the mark compared to my own experiences. I know some others here have ended up figuring out the same

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People like to share what they have with others to gain a reward of some sort. This is part of how social media and casinos work. Trigger the reward system by telling the brain “you, yes you, are with the cool kids”.
For an excellent read on how that is exploited, Natasha Dow Schüll - Addiction by Design

Takes a lot of self-control to reach a state of not careing for that new trendy thing everyone brags about because they are in the group!


Or become a cynical asshole only muttering to yourself while you delete what you wrote in response to some new thing somewhere.

It is the equivalent of walking into a doctors office, shouting “It hurts!” and then expecting the highly specific solution to whatever problem you may have.
Computer/Hardware forums are weird in this way.
People come in looking for “Gaming PC for Fortnite, League, R6S, $1200 budget” and when that system develops an issue in half a year, they come back “PC Crashes, Halp?” (wich is the PC equivalent of shouting “It Hurts!” after walking into a doctors office…)

Probably the same problem as I have: Music Theory is a complex subject.


Buying the most expensive parts you can find will likely result in a machine that is of very little use :wink:


Note to self: Stop piggy backing off of other peoples thoughts.

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Claim you are summarizing and you can totally get away with it :wink:

I have done a lot of cynical muttering and deleting in my time too.

Thanks also for the link. That looks like a very interesting read.

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It’s just general group dynamics, there are leaders and followers, and a need to be involved and accepted.
The internet just exacerbates parts of that.

Back in the 80’s my friends and I probably grossly overvalued Linn and Naim gear, because it was the highend stuff we’d heard and was pushed at us at the store.
We had less coveting what other friends owned in the same price bracket, because we could directly compare it, and you pretty quickly realize then much as now, there aren’t a lot of “giant” killers, and many close to equally good ways to build systems with strengths and weaknesses.

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In regards to too many voices and reviewers being shit lately, I think covid played a big part.
We can’t visit shops and demo things to listen for ourselves lately, so we have to rely on written word, hype, and even worse reviewers trying to measure or quantify “better”

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I don’t think it helps that the competition between reviewers for eyeballs is made so sharp by how precarious a job it is to be doing freelance

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Not to mention the constant shilling. The companies that offer the reviewer to keep a product for a positive review is the definition of irresponsible for influencers. Sadly, this happens more often than people realize.

Also, way too often these reviewers pop up and automatically they are considered experts. Most of them don’t even say how they got into the hobby and what possibly qualifies then to be reviewing gear in the 1st place. It’s like amateur night at a karaoke bar, but everyone keeps singing the same song, lol.

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I think we as a community try to do this for a couple of reasons. If you’re not appreciating what you’ve got and by appreciating I mean learn what it does well, what you like about it, what it doesn’t so so well and what you don’t like about it. It’s that aspect of appreciation that then allows you to take the next step.

The biggest things for a new person in the hobby to learn is to possibly not rush into the deep end too quickly. It’s so easy to buy gear that was hyped or liked by others that you simply won’t like and that the worst possible place to wind up. As now, not only did you buy a piece of equipment that was expensive but that you’ll now wind up taking a hit on because you didn’t like it or because it didn’t integrate well into your system.

The hobby is just as much about what you buy as it is about what you don’t buy. Buying once is always going to be cheaper than buying multiple times because you made mistakes along the way.

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Audio takes so much time, listening is a skill and if you don’t take time to both train that skill and also appreciate what you currently have, you will be left wanting. If you move up too quickly, you won’t truly appreciate that next step and it becomes a game of moving up but not getting any more satisfaction from it. That’s also why I suggest people start lower rather than higher, to help build listening skill and establish preference early on, and it also helps better showcase the various differences and improvements you get from moving up

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I wrote this elsewhere in the hopes that people would learn from the mistakes of others. (one way to save money)

Funding Your Audiophile Hobby (Discussion and Q&A)

This hobby can be expensive, thrice such if your get addicted, I’m not even going to mention how much more so if you, like me, are a drunken sailor with your cash. I laugh but if I’ve got $20 dollars in my pocket, I’m pricing things out that are $30 dollars. So how do you deal with this hobby?

Well, it helps that my previous all consuming hobby had been restoring an old Porsche, and in the Porsche community there’s a running joke called the Porsche tax. Meaning that Bosch will sell you a fuel injector for your Porsche that costs $220 dollars, and laugh at you because the same fuel injector for a BMW or a Jaguar, literally the same part but with a different manufacturer SKU will cost you $85 dollars. No such shenanigans in the audio world but (as obscene) but you get the point.

So other than my wife handling ALL of our finances (you know, I’m a drunken sailor) and giving me an allowance per month to use for my hobby. I’ve learned to deal with the audio hobby by applying some common sense business practices that will help you to “move up” easier through the various equipment levels and allow you to do it for the least amount of cash outlay.

Obviously this is a foundational hobby that you MUST have an understanding of your likes, dislikes and preferences to be able to grow into higher end gear so you don’t blow cash chasing dead ends or taking a hit on equipment you just didn’t like at all.

Since I want to keep this conversational, I may come back and edit this thread over time as I add rules or guidelines but for now I’ll start with what I believe is the most important. These recommendations/rules/guidelines whatever we decide to call them, apply to every budget. $200, $2000, $20,000 they don’t change and are just as applicable. More so even the deeper you go.

1) RESEARCH
What I mean by research is don’t just do the usual watching a couple of YouTube videos and throw money at something. I mean follow it on eBay and USA Mart and Audiogon and Reddit. Look at how many watchers an item has. Zero watchers means the item may not have a large following. A lot of watchers mean (very important here) that the item will be easier to resell if you don’t like it, or if you did like it, you’ll be able to sell it in 3 or 4 months for the same amount of money you paid for it… sometimes even more money than you paid for it. Like I said, you have to treat is as a business with a P&L sheet and be willing to inert that into every purchase you make.

Granted, we’re emotional beings and it’s a hobby based on emotion so there are times when you won’t follow this first rule, just know that you’re exposing yourself and if you made a mistake these types of emotional purchases are going to hit your wallet hard. How many high end DACs do you see for sale that retailed for $18,000 two years ago but someone is selling it now for $9,000. That money came out of someone’s wallet. Make sure it’s not yours.

So when you’re going to buy something, research it, know the market of who is buying it, how much it’s sold in the past for and how its value has held up over the years if it’s an older piece of hardware. Look at negative feedback on the item, don’t just fall for the confirmation bias, sometimes there’s good information in critical reviews or comments.

2) GET A GOOD DEAL
It’s easy to say, I mean sounds like… DUH. Everybody wants a good deal but if you did your homework on the first rule, getting a good deal becomes much easier. You know what you’re paying for the item so you know your cost, but you’ll also know its value, you’ll also know what the market demand for that item is and most importantly, getting a good deal will mean that it will be MUCH easier for you to flip that component should you outgrow it, or should you not enjoy it, or it just simply didn’t have the right synergy well within your ecosystem.

When you buy something, ask yourself how much would I be able to resell this for? If you bought something at auction and there were 8 or 10 people bidding on it and 30 or 40 watchers, you know that item will resell easily. Supply and demand… but if you are the guy that buys something that’s been sitting on the shelf for four months or goes unsold at auction three times without a single bid… you know you’re going to have a hard time flipping that. I’m not saying that’s a bad move to buy that item. It may be a very niche product that would be perfect in your system. What I’m saying is that if it didn’t work for you and you wanted to sell it, you’re going to have a brick on your hands for a long while, or worse… have to drop the price considerably in order to move it.

Back in the NYC area there was a clothing retailer selling suits, Syms. Well, Sy Syms would get on TV and say… “an education consumer is our best customer”. Be that education consumer in the hobby and that means having to walk away from a deal sometimes despite how much you’d like to have that piece of gear right now.

3) Have Money On Hand
This one is kind of obvious but it’s one of the biggest hurdles in the hobby. We’re looking for the stuff we’re looking for and we want it now. But what happens when you find the stuff you’re looking for and your bank account is saying no while your bid or purchase now finger is saying yes?

If you don’t have the money, you can’t buy your shit. How can you buy your shit if you don’t have any money?

Well let’s look at some of the reasons we sometimes find ourselves without any money. I keep a separate account (see drunken sailor in rule number 1 ) and so if there’s money there, I can use it. If there isn’t money there I can’t buy anything. It’s that simple. One of the biggest there isn’t money there is because I spent that money buying shit I didn’t need or just shit to tie me over or just… because this might hurt, the hobby is an addiction, compounded by the normal retail therapy addiction, you have wasting money on shit squared. So don’t buy things unless you absolutely need it or you absolutely love it. You’re going to need discipline if you’re going to buy that $800 DAC to upgrade from your $200 DAC but it’s going to take you 3 months to come up with the cash. That’s okay, it’s just that without the discipline you’re going to find yourself in this situation a lot. That $800 dollar DAC is going to show up for sale somewhere for $650 and you won’t have the money to buy it because you bought 2 other things you didn’t need or were hyped as the next best thing and you absolutely had to have.

Moral of the story; Don’t take your eye off your long term goal!

4) Supplement your funds
Take a look around you. I guarantee you that you’ll have “stuff” it could be cables, it could be a DAC or and amp you don’t use any more, it could be a nice vintage piece that you don’t use but keep on hand for sentimental reasons. SELL IT, SELL IT, SELL IT. if you’re not using it, get rid of it. It will supplement your account to further fund your purchases and it will allow someone else to get into the hobby and try things that are new to them so you’re doing a double benefit. One for your bank account and one for a new hobbyists.

When you sell your stuff, don’t be emotional and don’t be afraid to give a good price on your stuff, and don’t be inflexible with negotiations (negotiation will be its own rule). If you’re looking to get $180 dollars on your $200 DAC its never going to sell. You gotta be truthful to yourself and the reality is that your bank account will fill up quicker if you sell stuff than it will if you have ten things for sale and haven’t sold a single one of them.

These rules are cumulative in nature, that’s why I say look for a good deal, because when you find a good deal, if you don’t like it, you’ll be able to sell it quicker and fill your bank account back up so that the money is there when you need it next. See what I mean? The circle of life for the audiophile. :slight_smile:

So if you haven’t already, get up right now, rummage through your closet full of shit you no longer use and ask yourself how much did I pay for this, how much did I need it when I bought it and why do I no longer use it now; Based on those question you’ll come up with a price ( that price may sometimes be very low, it hurts I know but that’s because you didn’t follow the rules ) and put that ship up for sale. Someone will buy it because there are a lot of someones out there in the same boat that you were in when you bout it two years ago and the one year it’s spend sitting unused in your shit close.

5) Talk to your buyer/seller
May seem simple or perhaps even trite, but talk to people. If you’re buying something, especially if it’s a step up from where you are. Explain to the person you’re buying from why you want their item, why they bought it and what they liked about it. Tell them about your system and what you expect to gain by integrating (insert component here) what you’re trying to buy from them. This goes in part with being an educated consumer. This is in the end, a hobby and as such people like the chit chat, the song and dance and if they happen to be sold on your enthusiasm, charisma, eagerness to continue to grow in the hobby… they may just fall for your low ball offer.

Try it, it works… even as a seller, if you reverse the suggestion. :slight_smile:

EDITED 4/10

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Mvp post

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This…not sure I’ve seen this put so succinctly in a way that I agree with more

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I think it will depend on the person. Some people can just live with entry level. I personally am very happy with mid-fi.

I have seen comments about “being trapped in mid-fi” or “haven’t moved past mid-fi yet”, as if I am too stupid to know that mid-fi is inferior. For 99.99% of people mid-fi is all you need and overkill for most.

But, if you have golden ears or deep pockets, feel free to move on and try that high end gear out. But once you move past the $1,000.00 point, IMO, the benefits are very incremental. If you can hear those slight improvements and money is no object, go for it.

I was actually quite surprised to be invited to this forum as my gear and aspirations are quite different from the majority here. But I do enjoy reading about the high end gear that I will never own. It is like reading audio magazines in the old days. :grin:

I would say to you and anybody else that you don’t have to keep up or justify yourself. Get to the point where you enjoy your gear and leave it that. We can read about and enjoy the high rollers gear without worrying about when we can afford those ZMF’s or Empyreans.

Personally, I am done with DAC’s and amps, but can not ever imagine not buying more headphones. I seem addicted to trying out every headphone in the world under $1K. :laughing:

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I think to clarify the bigger problem is just being trapped in constant sidegrades imo, where you end up with lots of different amps, dacs, headphones what have you, to the point there you could move up and consolidate. This can happen at any range not just midfi. So moreso not exactly about a specific price range, but just going overboard with sidegrades which can become pretty unrewarding if you keep going imo

We are generally just looking for nice reasonable people to talk to lol, not really looking to force this forum to lean ultra high end or anything, just someplace that’s free from a lot of the nonsense that is happening on other people. It would be bad if there wasn’t some diversity either, we don’t need to see eye to eye all the time. Also it’s not like you don’t own some pretty sweet pieces too lol

Speaking of not seeing eye to eye lol

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@Shane I hear ya, guy. I am happy to have been invited here as well…decent, helpful,
open-minded folks here.

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It’s not about high end. Reading about gear goes both ways too as in midfi or whateverfi is interesting to a bunch of us. You always do write ups on your gear and you’re a good dude. That’s why the invite :+1:

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It’s all relative and personal to the individual. In my experience I haven’t hit any barrier I would consider diminishing returns as of yet, so my threshold for upgrades instead has a (somewhat arbitrary) monetary cap of <5k per individual component. And yet, I see that there is hifi equipment that costs many more times what my setup costs. Does that mean I’m in the entry level of high end? I don’t really care about that. As pointed out, this hobby is all about enjoying your music through enjoying your gear, and enjoyment can be had at any price point, meaning if a product is indeed good, it doesn’t matter what it costs, it deserves to be talked about, and you’re free to discuss those items or anything else worthwhile here.

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This forum was created by a majority of people spending $$$$ on audio, so initial threads are about comparisons/products that are up there in price. However, it isn’t the intention that this forum will be high end only, instead, the aspiration is to gather a diverse, pleasant, and open minded group of individuals who will make this place the best forum for all kinds of audio discussions. Quite possibly the only types of people who wouldn’t get invited here would be people that are religiously objectivistic about audio to the point where they are meanspirited and pushy about what others should buy, dishonest influencers/marketers, or people who just act like an asshole in their interactions with others.

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That’s good to know. A kind of a mission statement.

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