Today I made my 2nd trip to my local hYfY store(the only one I knew of before, anyway), this time bringing in my own equipment, and NOT using the rubbish hardware they had running last time I was there. I brought in a Questyle CMA 15, and EF400+MLP, and played music off of VLC on my phone via Bluetooth or USB-C. Compared to all my other hardware, the CMA 15 definitely sounds less digital, less harsh, more enjoyable, and I fully trust it as a proper headphone testing tool. Thus, I tested all of the headphones with it, and sometimes used the EF400+MLP(or CMA 15+MLP) as a secondary test check for possible sound variation/degradation/improvement. Most testing was single-ended.
The results were better this time, as expected, but were still pretty lackluster… These were the top 4 models, which I felt still sounded only half as good as their pricetags at best. However, I only felt the top 2 were worth buying. I would say:
A) I wasn’t that impressed with the treble of any of these
B) I wasn’t that impressed with the bass of any of these
So, I have now cleared a LOT of headphones out of the way, and still haven’t found one that screams UPGRADE… Luckily, I have just tonight found a 2nd local store that carries Dan Clark and has a Bravura(!), which I will go demo immediately. Besides those models, there doesn’t seem to be much left to try: X9000/L700/007, HE1000V2/SE, Susvara, MySphere, RAD-0?. I am assuming Stax is the one that can actually impress me…but maybe no headphone will sound better to me than my IEMs and speakers? I wish there was a damn store that had Stax around here. My main local store is getting a Woo energizer soon, for their one and only estat, CRBN, so I could test a Stax model there, perhaps. No idea which energizer they are ordering, so that could be another problem.
#1 - LCD-4 (just sounds right in almost every way. Does not have mind-blowing bass. Pleasant, relaxed treble, with minimal fatigue. Better, more snug fit than LCD-3. Relaxed vocals! Vocals pushed a bit. No severe headphone driver vibration like LCD-3. Liquid detail! Needs lots of power. Pleasant thump. Nice impact; not overdone. Good with Rock; some fatigue. Generally smooth & relaxed. Good sense of space. Bass not very dense/thick. Treble a little muted/cut off. Nice w/Metal; slightly fatiguing still. Nice w/Electronic, but stronger bass could help. Pop/EDM is great. Imaging and treble could be more clear and crisp.) (EF400+MLP: sounds a little brighter. Obvious channel imbalance in amp…) (CMA bal cable: sounds right. Same bass)
#2 - AP2000Ti (Really nice clarity, space, bass. Thumpy. Clear, pleasant, and satisfying bass density. Treble could be more relaxed. Very engaging. Too bright with Rock. Very refreshing with EDM/Electronic. Crystal clear detail)
#3 - LCD-3 [current fazor?] (The drivers vibrate very easily from any head or body movement… Clear! Nice imaging, with wide L/R spacing. Nicely energetic. NOT very bassy… Decent bass density. Sounds good. Balanced.)
#4 - Empyrean Elite (Nice bass; more mid-bassy than sub? Too bright…? Great impact. Too much sound pressure/fatigue. Fantastic SQ in general. Maybe too bright, and warm. Good spaciousness. Dipped mids? Rolled treble? Bright; could have better, more evenly presented detail/treble.
LCD-2
(Smooth, dark. Overly warm tone. Kinda thin bass density, or neutral. Just alright overall. Vocals shouty)
LCD-2 Classic
(A bit more focused than 2. Slightly more bass density? Smoother vocals, less detailed? Dimensionally flat… Bass can be fatiguing. Reverb not very good/clear)
LCD-2C
(Clear. Pushed vocals. Great reverb! Odd stage shape… Nice, dense, smooth bass. Slightly bright in vocal region. Good with Rock. Not great overall)
LCD-X 2021
(Drivers vibrate a lot… Fairly beefy sub bass. Nice balance. No depth. Wall of sound)
LCD-XC
(Good space. Rather cold, thin. Good mids. Vague imaging… More interesting than X 2021)
LCD-5
(Very clean. Neutral bass? Very nice, accurate treble and air. Bass density not great; light bass, but reached deep. Sounds like a Grado. Gets fatiguing with Rock… Good sense of space. Great reverb/echo/etc effects. I like it, but not with Rock or too much bright content)
MM-500
(Fairly thin and bright. Neutral bass. Good detail and neutrality)
109 Pro
(Extremely metallic treble… Pushed/tubular stage shape)
Liric
(Pleasant detail. Less thump and bass than Empyrean. Kinda bright. Poor bass texture; muddy)
Empyrean
(Warm, semi-thumpy. Kind of muddy/unclear. Needs more bass, more clarity. Bass warm, but not too strong/thick/dense. Relaxed tuning, but brightly detailed treble)
Elegia
(Nice and clear. Vocals sound great, but too bright/crisp/sharp? Distortion? Overall good)
Celestee
Too bright… Good space. Shouty! Nice bass)
Clear MG
(Clear, shiny. Good space and imaging. Good w/Electronic. Rather cold)
Stellia
(Very clean and clear. Gets too bright… Metallic)
Utopia 2020
(Clear, clean. Somewhat distant… Slightly bright, rather thin and cold. Not super analytical. Dry bass. Lacking sub. Vocals a bit fatiguing. Not that impressive, outside of treble. Bass is good, but not great. Too bright in vocal area. Staging too pushed/unfocused)
D8,000,000 Pro
(Circle pads are uncomfortable. Thick, rich bass. Treble detail comes through well. Really nice detail, not too bright. Very smooth and physical sound. This is what I expected Empyrean to sound like. Vibrant, rich, wet treble. Handles Metal nicely. Not much stage depth or space. Maybe too bright still. Shimmery. Fast. Great with Electronic. OK rendering of reverb/echo/etc effects.)
Grado RS1x
(Too bright, tinny. Bass distortion)
Grado GS1000e
(Sounds like wood. Nice balance, detail, space. Clear, detailed. Bass lite. Good mids. Too bright and sharp)
Pretty curious about what IEMs you normally use and what is your main genre for music. I’m not surprised that a lot of these headphones didn’t give you a wow factor, I myself don’t really connect with most of the modern headphones well too. But I kinda want to know what you are specifically looking for in a headphone.
Add on: I noticed you didn’t try Fostex TH-900 or Denon 9200. You could probably try them at your local Hifi shop next time if they have that. Those headphones got a nice bass slam with some good treble.
The TT2 is nice, though I haven’t heard the Questyle (would love to though).
That current amplification is supposed to be really good for planars.
I wonder if that silver cable accentuated the treble on the Elite? When I heard them the treble would get just south of what I felt would be too bright for my ears, but it had the stock copper cable. I bet the silver would likely accentuate the treble further.
Also, second what @SaberPunch stated with the Fostex. Very good bass.
For maximum, full detail neutral = AFUL Performer5 + Questyle M15.
For a smoother, less bright/fatiguing experience = AFUL P5 + Cayin RU6.
For maximum zero-fatigue enjoyment(bassy, warm & tamed treble) = Hook-X + RU6.
For maximum spatial performance(gaming, typ) = FD5 + M15.
I don’t think I’ve heard any Denons, at least not in 10 years. I did try E-MU Teak recently, which I preferred ModHouse Argon T60RP over it. These 2 local stores don’t have Denons. Ooo, but I just found a place that has Nagra, Bricasti, Gold Note, and Rockna! And another with Innuos, MolaMola, and MSB. (all unrelated to headphones lol)
I want effortless(=no/minimal fatigue), breathable, wide open treble. I can only assume estats are the answer for this, without doing a ton of damping, cuts, or special tricks to achieve it. (I did enjoy experiencing my L300, when I had it, and have still not been able to hear a higher model yet) HD800S has pretty nice detail with CMA 15, but there’s no way I would say it sounds better than my measly IEM setup.
I might need a special amp to maximize bass. For bass, I am relatively happy with what AP2000Ti and LCD-4 do, but I was certainly expecting more density/weight from both LCD-3 and 4. (The pre-fazor 3 is stronger, IIRC) Maybe only closed back dynamics can do it that well. Or EQ could be another option. The bass of AP2000Ti is quite similar to Performer5, kind of rubbery/elastic, except with more quantity than the IEM.
Susvara, Mysphere and X9000 will probably give you the treble you’re looking for but not with the chain you’re trying things with. Keep that in mind because you most likely won’t be wowed by the Sus and MS that way. They are more complex than a single listen with unoptimized gear imo
As per bass - you might actually like the ZMF Atrium Closed believe it or not. It’s a very interesting take on bass that’s quite different than what you’ve listened to. Although I doubt you’ll find what you’re looking for if you’re comparing to speakers.
How is the bass on the Atrium Closed Back? Not going to lie, that headphone is still on my mind. Is it a rumbling bass or is it a clean bass? Most impressions I read say it got an overwhelming bass and I kinda like that if it’s the overwhelming visceral bass. Still got a whole month to debate if I want to buy it or not.
It’s more of a bloomy bass with a lot of presence and less accurate or sharp. Reminds me more of home theater type bass if that makes any sense. It might be overwhelming of the rest of the FR for some but I think that if you know what you’re getting and what for, and with the right chain, it could be a blast to listen to.
I’m very surprised that anyone would think the Elite is too bright. Then again, I always listen to them with a tube amp. I’d say if anything, most complaints about them are the opposite, with the musical/warm presentation being described as not detailed or bright enough as some of the other TOTL options.
To me they are never fatiguing and extremely comfortable for long listening sessions. I use a Quicksilver amp and Bifrost 2. I also switch between an all silver cable (Wireworld Nano Platinum Eclipse) and all copper cable (ZMF 2K Copper) and don’t notice any excessive brightness when using the silver cable.
No idea, haven’t heard the TT2. I doubt the Red will make the difference.
Those are three headphones that can scale as much as you can afford to push them and then some. They will continue improving with $10-15-20K systems driving them.
For many people, including me, it takes time to really understand what they do and how they sound. Obviously they will be much better than low end cans but it seems like you’re looking to be stunned on first listen. You have experience with other gear, it’s going to be harder to really impress you since the diminishing returns at this level of spend doesn’t necessarily feel worth it for a lot of people and it’s the fine details and small things that they do so much better than others.
All of these headphones are probably brand new, so that could have some effect. Or the store environment. Or our age or hearing level. The brightness/fatigue seemed to occur with vocals or rock, usually. I would say both D8000 and Empyrean were darker and less bright than Elite. When I say Elite is bright, it’s more of small scale brightness nitpicking, than Grado bright, but still there.
I know the Empyrean is objectively darker than the Elite, so that definitely makes sense. I also got my Elite used, so it was already burned in (if that makes any difference). Tube amplification also makes for very easy listening without listener fatigue. There are so many variables in this hobby!
I found it kinda funny as the thread said fruitless with a frown emoji… sounds like it was a pretty damn fun day IMO. I enjoy just going down to my local pro audio store and hit their demo rooms for a few hours every couple of months. They get some pretty sweet gear that is fun to just try out with no interruptions.
In life I’ve been told and found to be true sometimes finding what you don’t like is just as valuable as finding what you do like. I’ve found that to be true with jobs, relationships, and hifi audio.
I also find that in a demo environment the products that “wow” you aren’t necessarily what I want long term and the products that seem initially boring are what I do want. The speakers with the AMT and Ribbon tweeters tend to be more impressive initially along with B&W. But after 15 min I tire of the sound and prefer the harbeth tone or balance of dynaudio. Just my experience that it takes time and sometimes multiple tries at it.
My main local store is getting a Woo energizer soon, for their one and only estat, CRBN, so I could test a Stax model there, perhaps. No idea which energizer they are ordering, so that could be another problem.
