Weekend Topic (8/26) - What Does Endgame Sound/Feel Like For You?

@orrman Hijacking this one for a discussion on my mind.

What does endgame look like for you guys? What does it sound like? What are you aiming for?

I feel like a few of us are quite content with our setups. The “What Have I Recently Purchased” thread is our most popular thread by far and I feel like a few of us have been quite quiet in there as of late. Members like @Towa @dB_Cooper @NickMimi and @M0N in some ways. Of course, myself.

I have been tempted. K50s showing up. The Audience cables lately. Eyeing a Pacific. etc etc, but ultimately, I’ve been quite content.

I’ll elaborate more, but what about you guys? Thoughts?

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I think once I have a Stellaris and maybe one more dac upgrade I’ll be good. I feel that’s a good realistic stopping point for me. The dac, maybe a wavedream? Maybe a totaldac? We’ll see. Stellaris will come first. After those things, tubes and cables for tweaking. Maybe a headphone here and there to try for fun, but it’ll have to work off that chain or the ss I have at the time.

Each time I’ve moved away from the DNA sound to attempt the Susvara and chain that comes with it, I always get pulled back into missing that signature. I think I’ve learned my lesson and really narrowed down my taste. I really like the Utopia and I think the D8KP compliments it enough to give me that planar touch. And it’s a planar that can work on the same chain as the Utopia so a win win.

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This is great @Veritas I’ve been traveling so couldn’t keep up with this lately!

I’ll add my thoughts here a little later today (8am here…)

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Likewise traveling today so won’t respond until this evening. I will give a genuine stab at this weekend topic. At the most basic of levels your read on the situation is spot on.

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Would you look at that lol, also travelling. But I think I can give my answer now, since it’s pretty simple.

For my main speaker setup, that is my endgame and will always be my endgame. Only time I actually feel comfortable using the word endgame in fact lol. The only thing I might change about that setup is upgrading to the newest top antipodes when it comes out. That’s pretty much it. Speakers, amps, preamps, iso/racks, cabling, are pretty much set in stone for me. At this point same with the dac too, but I might upgrade it later on if a better totaldac comes out in the future.

In terms of how it sounds, best I can describe it as just overall real, it’s good enough that I can get away with using the term lol. I guess it’s probably a bit sweeter than real, but it’s so accurate in the time domain that it still feels real regardless despite having a bit of extra coloration that makes tonality and presentation a bit tilted sweeter.

For the headphone setup, I’d say that’s pretty much my limit for what I want as well. I don’t think it’s as set in stone as the speaker setup, but I still really like it. For what might change, I’m not really sure lol. I might end up slotting in another preamp into that setup more suited toward the Aries cerat (probably an impera ii) and maybe bump the power amp to a concero 65, but I don’t really know if that would be worth the extra cash. I’ll definitely get the top tier mass kobo eventually lol. Still on the fence about selling the ec studio t. Headphone wise I’m also pretty locked in unless there’s an upgrade to what I have that comes out, although been considering also selling off the adx5k but can’t bring myself to do it lol, potentially replaced by a higher end limited edition at in the future, don’t know. On speakers are definitely locked in here though, no desire for anything different there.

Sound wise, there’s a lot more potential variance depending on what I use in the setup, but I think it’s consistently high directness, high dynamics for whatever I’m using. Generally anything used with the horizon is also pretty spatially massive and enveloping, just extremely immersive. Picking the AFM offers a bit more relaxed in presentation and a bit more warmth and richness while still maintaining the directness and liveliness of the lower level information, still great control, very organic and liquid. Swapping to the concero offers a much more massive, grander, forward, quick and macro almost heavy handed approach while still being very organic and extremely technical. Both 2 very different experiences that are equally worthwhile depending on pairing and what I want out of the setup lol. The berk to mk chain is something I use more out of convenience, but it’s also a very accurate reference chain that I think is honestly less colored than my main HP chain, nowhere near as good/realistic, not as enjoyable, but I think it can still be valuable enough to keep around for when I’m questioning what a recording is exactly doing, or when I’m lazy which is mainly why I use it lol.

I do have my current fuck around setup listed now, which will probably change around, but I won’t count that.

TLDR: my endgame is mostly what I have, just extremely satisfied, only upgrades or changes I would want to make is if there’s direct upgrades to what I already have. I don’t have much to say on all of it because I don’t think I really have the capacity to actually put what I’m hearing to words in my setups anymore lol, and I’m not making any other changes in the setup outside of upgrading to something that’s the same but better

I’ve also been quiet for the past few months since I’ve been working on a few projects, my preamp comparison, another front page article, and getting demos in of random stuff I wanted to check out and making some notes on that, so that’s taken my time and energy that would typically be used for forum posting lol


I could go on about how I feel like the concept of “endgame” is highly variable and somewhat of a both highly misused and highly personal phrase, always irritates me just like the phrase diminishing returns does. But I’ll just treat the question more as asking about how you feel about your current setups and status in the hobby, rather than how would you define the term endgame and all the stuff that goes around that lol.

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This is always a fun topic, especially for those of us who continue to slowly progress in our understanding and experience with various types of equipment. I am personally heavily invested in various forms of tube based equipment for use w/ both HP and speaker systems, i am slowly learning how gain works between the DAC, a pre-amp, and the amplifier. I have gained good insight slowly on how to use fine tuning techniques such as tube rolling to adjust for mild sound character changes, or changes to the gain of a piece of equipment to slightly offset and provide for more headroom or range of volume.
I am learning to understand base noise floor in a system and what that means to me in the overall experience and how to match and mate pieces to offset this particular trait when it presents itself rather than simply assuming a piece no longer has value and relegating it to a corner not to be used again.
I am nowhere near my endgame, especially with speaker systems because my desires continue to fluctuate as i add personal value to various performance traits. This added value will increase or decrease my own limits on the dreaded process we refer to as the diminishing return relative to funds spent for performance gained. This is all very personal and eventually reaches a point where only you can decide what provides value for your entertainment because that is all this hobby is, personal entertainment.

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My current Three Musketeers lineup has been steady since early spring: Audeze LCD-X 2021, HD 6XX with ZMF pads and Grado 325x with a variety of pads.

That group suits me and my preferred genres of music very well. Plus each of the cans is very different, so they’re complementary.

I’m eyeing a ZMF Aeolus down the line, and I’m curious about the Audeze MM-100 once it hits the market. Otherwise, I’m happy with my cans – for now.

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Lionel Messi playing in Jersey today, so decided to skip the travel. 1/4 of the 20 million people in the tri-state area are going to be be there. :slight_smile:

End game should sound satisfying, end game should sound like there is no further need to look. It should have the feel that you’ve been chasing and it should most importantly be a considerable financial (a rationally illogical step) to take if you wanted to continue up.

Not until I had invested quite a bit of money and had a very good chain put together, did I start to realize that I was nearing my “endgame”. Going to shows, listening to friends systems, confirming things I already suspected but still… there was a need to for more. I wanted more realism. Not the kind of you are there live realism that’s so often sold to the consumer. But the realism of woodwind sounds just like a woodwind. Percussions sound JUST LIKE percussion, cymbals, the dimensions of the space the musicians are in, everything sounds convincing and real.

I mean real in the way The Expanse is a convincingly “real” Sci-Fi show entirely different from the way Star Wars presents itself. Never trying to be real. In the end, neither of them are real, but one convinces me that it is. That’s what being at the endgame has done for me. I know there’s better. @M0N painfully raises the bar on me and trusting his word, I know it gets better than where I am today but that’s why I mention the financial aspect. It’s the elephant in the room that we as a community must talk about. Everyone is in a financially different stage or position in their lives and thus everyone’s end game is going to be predicated on that financial position because it has to.

I say this because the hobby unfortunately tends to associate the “endgame” term with TOTL gear, but that gear is out of reach for a lot of people and IMO, may not be worth the effort or expense or sacrifice to some should they put it in their financial context. If it give you joy, then fulfill that joy, but top shelf gear should not be the reason to strive for endgame.

I come back to this; after the thousands and thousands of dollars I’ve thrown into the pit, I still enjoy/ed my BHC/SB with an old Mojo V2 SE DAC, and my HD600 headphones just as much as I enjoy the experience of my near end game 2-CH system, and that chain cost 1/20th the price. So as far as enjoyment, the pure act of listening to music on a chain, end game can and should be measured by how much joy it brings you as opposed to how much money you’ve thrown at it.

I’m rambling so I’ll pause and come back later after there’s more content here as I’m really curious to hear from the lot of you.

Safe travels to all.

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I would love to hear how you feel about the sound on the newer Audio Technica limited editions if you are able to get your hands on one. I’ve been listening to my 5 rotations and just really enjoy what the ATH-L3000 brings. It’s the least technical of the bunch besides the Onkyo A800, but man there is something in that midrange that I really like. With a nice balance of bass and treble, I am really enjoying that headphone more than I should and it got me considering maybe purchasing that new ATH AW-KG Naru. But knowing its might be a 100 limited release and the price might be similar to the previous limited release which was the W2022 for about $9K, its not going to be worth it on my current chain. On a summit-fi chain like yours, I would be curious to see how it stacks with the other big boys.

I also associate endgame of how far a person is willing to spend. I used to associate endgame as summit-fi price gears, but now I just associate that word as another word for satisfaction. I seen so many people say their endgame is Raal Sr1a with their amp or a HD600 (one of my favorites) with a good tube amp and never really go above that. I recently talked to a record store guy for advice on either going CD Transport vs turntable and his endgame was an older ATH LP 120 with a Nagaoka MP 110H cartridge connected to an Onkyo receiver, then connected to an Elac B6 speaker that is the setup he had for years.

Me personally, I wasn’t going to answer this because I still feel really green in this hobby, but will reply since I like this topic a lot. There is so much stuff I never really explore like Turn Tables, CD Players/Transport, a higher tier server/streamer, estats headphones, speakers, more pre-amps, and the list goes on. I see Endgame more as the end of a chapter in my audio adventure, rather than the very end because I like experiencing new flavor too much. Like for example, I recently declare “endgame” for my headphone setup because I can’t see myself going up anymore in my gear except the DAC and source for just a headphone setup. There will always be something better than my equipment, but with what I own currently, I am pretty satisfied with leaving the headphone chapter right now as it is. Also, if I do go up the ladder, I got to remember about getting good cables and that always kind of prevent me for going up to the next level because the money is going to start stacking up. Like having a $10K + equipment, but using my cheap cable doesn’t sit right with me unless the cable is a really good DIY. Like, if I wanted to upgrade my Allnic to a Trafomatic Primavera and upgrade my Mystique Evo DAC to an SW1X DAC IV or an EMM Lab DAC, then I got to have the best cables for that too for the best experience or it just feels like a waste and I could have put that money on a good equipment half the price and a good cable to balance the whole chain out.

A bad habit is I really enjoy experiencing new gear vs just being happy of what I got. I think I like listening to new gear sometimes more than the music itself unfortunately, and I got into this hobby in the first place because I like listening to music. I remember when talking to the Supratek repair guy, I told him about my bad habits. He told me that there is nothing wrong with it as long as I am happy, but I should always remember to just sit back and actually enjoy my current gear before looking into something new the next week. That is why I am trying to put a hard stop on me buying new gears every month and just really listen to what I have now and appreciate them. Because of this advice, I was able to actually take the time and listen to the ATH-L3000 again on my current setup for a good while and fell in love with it again. It’s just I get a lot of dopamine from just trying new gear, no matter what range from $100 - $10,000+. So, I will probably still pick up something new just for the sake of trying it out and get a good new experience out of it even though I am pretty satisfied of what I got now. Then, when I am bored of it, I will always go back to my ole reliable ATH-L3000 and Onkyo A800 that I love so much and don’t have a good reason why I like these headphones.

So, for me, I personally do not have any real “Endgame”, just ending chapter of my audio adventures. Looking into the speaker world, it’s pretty intimidating because the sky is the limit on pricing lol. But I really want to take this leap because I am getting a lot of enjoyment from a $700 speaker currently. I’m just imagining what would happen with proper room treatment, proper placement, and an upgraded speaker and amp of how far I can take this and am willing to mentally accept on pricing. But because that speaker chapter is going to take a long while to accomplish another “satisfaction”, I thought about taking a year or 2 detours on exploring CD Transport and maybe upgrading the Mystique Evo B4B 21 to the Pro or whatever new DAC Ben is cooking at New Mexico. Then probably invest in cables after. Debating if I want to do in all Allnic cable (estimate $10K+ total on replacing all my cables in the current setup lol) setup like hifiDJ, or settle on some mid-level cables and not move too far up the ladder. Then, we will see what happens after that. I got plenty of years in me, so I don’t mind taking my sweet time. I also made a recent purchase and expect to receive it next week on a really cheap setup that I always wanted to try in April lol. I don’t know, I just really like trying out new things.

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I wish I had stated this myself many times over to people.

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As I foreshadowed earlier, I certainly have been tempted to upgrade. There are certainly paths that would keep the sound signature that I like, but improve on technicalities.

Such as Raidho D1 to D1.1 or TD1.2 or Borresen
Antipodes to K50, Lampizator to Pacific, cables to Frontrow and the list goes on.

Fortunately, I am quite content. Now, a big distinction is that I am not bored of the hobby. I still listen to music everyday and meditatively so. I just don’t feel the need to upgrade or change at the moment. Everything just sounds good. I think I felt that switch when I stopped listening to critically on a daily basis and just relax and let things melt away.

I know my setup is not perfect, nor can it ever be, but it hits the right beats and traits that I like and I don’t feel the need to keep chasing that higher.

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Endgame is a point where I don’t feel a strong urge to upgrade any part of my setup and can enjoy the sound while not thinking that this could be better. I’ve had a couple potential end games but I’ve pushed through them and tried nicer gear making my previous end game sound not as good anymore.

My first endgame was Bricasti MC1 → Flux Volot driving 1266 and Susvara
Next was Bricasti MC1 → Schiit Freya + → Schiit Tyrs driving Expanse, Atrium, 1266, and Susvara
Now I’m in another transition period where I’ve been trying different dacs although the Bricasti has still remained as one of my favorites. Right now I’m deciding between the Bricasti MC1 and the Meitner MA3. If I prefer the Bricasti I’ll sell both and go for the M21 but if I prefer the MA3 then I will sell the MC1. After that I might try some other amps or transports but the dac is the one thing I’ve wanted to figure out for a while now and see how much better it could get. I haven’t found better yet but I have found different.

The sound of an endgame setup for me is natural and smooth without fatigue. It should also have good dynamics and keep me engaged. I’m sure I will always be trying new things but I’d like to reach a point where the core of my system is constant and I’m instead trying things that are more tweaks rather then whole component changes.

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For me end game is easy to define. It is when the music i am hearing matches what I imagine in my head when thinking about that music. Simple, right?

Well, maybe it is better to talk about where I am and chains where I am end game’ed.

My portable set up is solidified. Modded Cowon Plenue S > PlusSound x8 > Focal Radiance. It fits the sound i want, is easy to travel with, darn comfy, and i dont want to be carrying around more $$ just incase something happens. It is tilted a bit warm, is easy to listen to, and blocks out tons of sound making for easy plane naps! I want to try that electech inferno cable as many here raved about it and the radiance, bur i do not want to put more money there and then have to go through selling more hard to sell cables.

On my PC it is BF2 > RNHP > Brise > HD800s. Once again it fits the needs. Its nicely balanced. The bombastic bf2 adds to games and media, the rnhp reigns it and the HD800s in a bit, and the senn carries the rest. It is also light and comfy. Really you can only go so far with what the sources are and what they can provide so why go further? It also is nicely sized and the BF2 unison usb makes it easy. I would like to grab a Mojo V2xa to replace the BF2 as i think it is an upgrade for not much more, but it would need to be spdif compatible (not going to mess with usb drivers) and i would probably still keep the BF2 for something.

The main headphone rig is more complicated as i really could write too much on that but a lot of it comes down to I still want to tweak tubes, power, cables. Maybe the Studio B gets replaced by something higher end but I dont even know what that would be at this time and its not something i actively think about tbh.

Speakers… Maybe one day…

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I want a 2 channel setup that I can turn down low late at night with a glass of whiskey in a small room to chill too (likely harbeth 40.3).

I want my main 2 channel to caste a huge stage with nice speed and dynamics. Almost there with my Maggie 1.7i still trying sub integration.

For headphones I want something of the detail and coherency of the sus but the impact and excitement of the abyss. Still haven’t found what I’m looking for.

Iems are kinda meh or me I’m perfectly happy with solid 500 set and don’t really get the reason to spend more as I haven’t really been impressed with more expensive sets.

Car audio I’ve heard a custom focal setup that was phenomenal. CDT makes a nice set of comps and for stock I really like the ELs studiod in the Acura mdx type s.

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For me the ene game state is when I can say “Yes” to the question: if this is the only setup you can afford for the rest of the life would you feel satisfied with it.

I am currently in thay state. Partially because I tried some higher end pieces and was able to pick the headphones I felt like best fit.my preferences. And partially because I spent my days and free time with hi-end baby screamer so no time to question everything in my setup.

Does it mean I am not going to try few more headphones and electronics in the future? No. I still want to add adx-5000 to my collection, try d8k pro and pick a better amp for my Fostex. But all of those are just nice to have at this point.

How does it sound for me. I believe somebody already said it sounds in a way I imagine in my head. But just a bit better. I need my chain to grab my attention, to stop from doing anything else and just listen. I like when mids and vocals sounds like the artist sings that to me, when I can imagine the stage and how the band or person performs.

But at the end it sounds like end game when I turn everything off after the session and think to myself, what a great time I had.

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I have been thinking of this question myself for some time, especially because I haven’t been in the hobby as long. I have been listening to music on better than average non-consumer grade headphones for more than 15 years but not the rest of gear. And I can still enjoy music on airpods equally once I get in the zone.

I often see more senior folks here asking what am I looking to change in my system when I ask for suggestions which is a totally legitimate question when suggesting a piece of gear but I often don’t really know the answer because I feel like most decent gear nowadays is usually not “bad” if you do your homework and its just different so unless I sample a lot, I won’t really know what I am looking for. But more I think about it, this bit really sums it up for me:

I think at the end of the day, that is all I am looking for. So in some sense, endgame will never be achieved sadly but will always be a function of disposable income and how satisfied I am with the current state of realism offered by my system.

In terms of concrete gear, I am going to stop my craziness once my analog rig is complete and then add a Shindo Cortese sometime next year and then sit tight for a few years.

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You’re going to have to sell some of your current gear to fund that! :wink:

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Happy Planning GIF

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…and the f2a tubes

End game is such a fascinating subject in this hobby.
My two brothers like to joke and remind me how every time I buy something new for my setup I say that “it can’t get better than this” or that "now I’m truly done buying amps/dacs/headphones because of this purchase here’ and here I am time after time improving and changing and hearing better quality sound.

Not so long ago I was still under the impression that I could find one chain and one headphone and simply use it for everything. That was the endgame I was trying to get to. I came to the realization that it’s impossible because of how these systems work and the many genres I listen to. I also found out that I have different preferences, depending on if it’s 2ch or headphones and the type of music I’m playing.

I’ll start with the easy one - I don’t care for portable gear. I have a Airpods Pro 2 connected to my iPhone and have no desire to have crazy IEMs with DAPs alongside it. Would I enjoy it more? probably. Is it money worth spending? not for me personally. So maybe that’s endgame.

Home theater is a different story - I had many years that I invested in 5.1 systems for home theater and chased the thrill of at home movie theater experiences. Helicopters coming from behind you and explosions that with the right subs (I’m looking at you Cerwin Vega) would shake my entire apartment windows… Today I have a 2.1 with small bookshelves and a svs sub and a simple sony avr and tbh I rarely watch TV anymore if it’s not sports. I rather spend that time listening to music. So maybe that’s endgame.

Headphones are my current frontier. Never in my life I imagined that I would own a system such as the one I have now. Not from the perspective of how good it sounds and not from the point of how much I spent on it. I always thought these budgets are better kept for 2ch systems (will get to that later in this post), mainly because I would think about how expensive speakers can be but haven’t given the chain powering it much thought until recent years and a lot has changed because of this community.
I am now at a point that I can’t really afford the next step in performance without selling gear or waiting to save more money and for a better timing in life for such expenses. The investment required to get better sound is significant dollars for small improvements. That’s the summit and it is what it is.
I can definitely stop here and own this system for the rest of my life and be content. Heck I can even sell a couple of headphones and still be happy. I probably won’t stop here though. I know it can get better, it always can. So this is not endgame, even not maybe. It’s a stop on the way.

Even after all these years of listening to “regular” music, I still get goosebumps once in a while of realism and excitement. Some music still moves me and brings back memories of when I first listened to it at home or when I listened to it live and how it felt and sounded at the time.
And then there’s electronic music (mostly psychedelic or progressive trance). There’s no alternative to a tower of subwoofers on an open air dance floor in the middle of the woods surrounded by your best friends, all sharing the love for the same music and spiritual experiences involved with it. Most of the time I’m not chasing instruments sounding real, I’m chasing the feeling I had in those moments over many years.
I listen to this music the most of any genre. It required a good amount of experience and hours to get to the understanding of what I personally care more about in my systems and what my preferences are because that’s not a typical audiophile’s magazine audience or reviewer.
As the years go by and it’s harder to create new memories and new experiences like those of the past, be it getting older, having kids or what not, I spend my money on reliving those memories in the best possible way my ears and brain can consume them. That’s the chase for me and it’ll probably never end.

As long as I can improve the sound and relive those moments more closely, there won’t be endgame. When the opportunity presents itself and I can invest in a 2ch system that’ll get me closer to that I will happily do so. I’m realistic enough to not plan for 800wpc monos and 20 inch subs that I’ll never be able to fully blast and get the impact and slam of a rave. Looking at my system now, probably everything can stay. Maybe I’ll switch the AIC-10 for a more powerful Riviera separates or the Levante. I like the fact my system can be the core of a great 2ch just as it is now the core of a summit headphones experience. I’m now convinced it’s worth spending on it. But I find it hard to think about investing in headphones only gear going forward. That’s why I’m more likely to sell the X9000 over investing in an energizer to drive it properly. Sus-AIC10 is really all I’ll ever need from headphones. DAC upgrade is probably the next thing for me, one step closer to endgame.

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