PS Audio Power Plant/regenerator thread, P3 / P12 / P15 / P20

[Polygonhell]

@GZF

The one thing I’m not quite sure about (and it undoes my statement from above) is if/how the shape of the sine (coming from the wall or power plant) affects anything.

Well there are obvious ways it could, DC offsets cause issues with transformers, and they aren’t perfect devices they respond differently to different frequencies.
Though having put my scope on the output of a 1:1 isolation transformer, the overall impact at the output of the transformer is negligible.

FWIW I did all my tests to try and identify what was causing 60Hz Hum on my A&S Pendant.

There seems to be a lot of speculation in the PSU design space as to what matters for components.
I’ve seen general agreement that CLC filters are better for tube applications, but are less critical for SS applications, and some reasonable “explanations” for that.

I’ve seen arguments around Tube vs SS rectifiers some types of SS Diodes conduct momentarily in at the point the input voltage swaps positive to negative, and I’ve seen arguments that this matters, sometimes suggesting RF is introduced, even though the frequencies involved would be very high.

The RCR and LCL filters are exactly that filters, and they are going to work better with some inputs than others.

Any noise that gets on a trace inside the box potentially can be coupled to other traces.

I’ve seen claims of lower impedance on the supply making a difference, in fact that’s Paul’s primary claim as to why Powerplants are better than filters. And he’ll claim a transformer with larger gauge wires is better for the same reason.

The best/most controlled example of it makes a difference I can suggest is that the PS Audio regenerators have an M-Wave switch, what this does is make the overall shape of the input slightly wider and flatter. The intent is it requires less filtering, they claim it’s like increasing the size of the capacitor bank in the PSU. On my system at least I can hear a difference if you turn it on, it’s not dramatic, and I’m not sure I even prefer it on, but it does make a difference.

In the end who knows, but I hear a difference with the power plant, I put it down to all those bits of analog electronics where a resistor isn’t just a resistor and nothing really behaves the way the ideal models are described.

[M0N]

The ps regenerators were one of the few power conditioners/regenerators that I actually considered a worthwhile improvement in my setups for awhile, in the past I had tried a decent bit of conditioners and while some of them were nice, they ended up causing other problems in sound and felt like too much of a trade off most of the time. The power plants consistently improved things without much of any downsides in past setups, although now I feel like it’s in the same place as those conditioners where the downsides outweigh the positives for me in my current setup lol

[dB_Cooper]

I’m always surprised at the lack of battery “solutions” in the high end. With Li battery technology and deluge of quality inverters out there, one would think that a solution along those lines would the the pinnacle of clean power.

[M0N]

I’ve seen and heard a decent amount of battery powered preamps and dacs, and they do sound fantastic (I’ve owned a few in the past too), but they are somewhat more of a hassle in terms of use (you have a limited time you can actually use them before having to have the battery recharge itself and the sometimes inconsistencies in sound during discharge at different charge levels), and then issues with potentially limited lifespan of the battery. It’s also only really going to work well for lower powered line level equipment. Anyways though while in theory it sounds great, there have to be some serious limitations or tradeoffs with battery powered gear outside of convenience otherwise I think we’d see a whole lot more battery powered gear

[dB_Cooper]

Yeah, I agree. I was specifically talking about a whole system type of solution. Been seeing a YouTube show where they’re building a wooden boat to sail around the world with and they’ve spent time discussion those Li solutions. They look amazing, light and can output direct DC in different voltages or converted AC.

Figured it’s only a hop skip and jump from something foundational like that to an entire system solution that you engage to listen and then recharge while not listening.

[Polygonhell]

@dB_Cooper

I’m always surprised at the lack of battery “solutions” in the high end. With Li battery technology and deluge of quality inverters out there, one would think that a solution along those lines would the the pinnacle of clean power.

They were trendy/common in devices in the late 90’s early 2000’s, they have their own issues.
Battery density is a lot better now than it was then, and there are still a few manufacturers doing it.

[GZF]

Battery power has one major advantage and one major disadvantage. They can put out a lot of current but are limited in voltage. Probably a Tesla Power Wall would be fine but how many of us are buying those for our stereo?

If you want battery and high power, get a bunch of batteries and build your system from mobile gear. But since nothing is perfect, 12V gear has its own disadvantages.

Someone above made a very good comment about DC through the transformer. This is a valid scenario of a jacked up mains sine. The question is, how bad does it have to be. In other words, is a shifted sine ok as long as it doesn’t clip (DC)? Or is any shift approaching DC going to be problematic?

At home I’ve been through various gear without any issues I would consider mains DC related. However, I keep an Emotiva CMX-2 just in case. I recently had Decware Taboo and the entire thing buzzed like there’s no tomorrow. Threw in the CMX-2 and most (but not all) of the buzzing went away. It’s the only amp that’s ever done that. To me it points to a “not great” PSU design. I know Decware is a well regarded brand and many people love the products but that amp left a bad taste in my mouth (for other reasons as well). There is one other possibility for its buzzing - my mains voltage tends to be on the high side - up to 126V. It’s possible the Emotiva shaved that down a bit through various losses in its circuitry and it helped the amp. But again, it’s the only piece of gear I’ve had here that exhibited power related issues so…

[M0N]

@GZF

Probably a Tesla Power Wall would be fine but how many of us are buying those for our stereo?

Well then you get into having to invert back to AC, which then you are now at the mercy of the quality of that inversion, unless you mean just skipping inversion and hooking it up direct dc to an audio product lol

@GZF

I recently had Decware Taboo and the entire thing buzzed like there’s no tomorrow. Threw in the CMX-2 and most (but not all) of the buzzing went away. It’s the only amp that’s ever done that. To me it points to a “not great” PSU design. I know Decware is a well regarded brand and many people love the products but that amp left a bad taste in my mouth (for other reasons as well).

I’ve had both amazing and shit gear buzz from time to time, as in like physical vibration sort of buzz, not sure if that’s bad design but rather just a design choice that’s just expects better power than not. Basically more garbage in garbage out designs. Like dacs that don’t have much internal reclocking or pll and are more dependent on a higher quality digital source vs one that does a lot of internal digital work with PLLs and things to better correct what’s coming into it. Would I say one is a worse design than the other? Likely not, but it’s something to note still, just different needs

[dB_Cooper]

Is there anything that buzzes other than a transformer?

[Polygonhell]

@dB_Cooper

Is there anything that buzzes other than a transformer?

technically an inductor with a core can, in practice it’s probably a transformer in most cases.
Caps can whine audibly.

[GZF]

For me if a component requires pristine power rather than being deigned to handle various circumstances, I ask myself why the designer was lazy.

But naturally, we all have different value systems and conceptual priorities so whatever works for you is all good.

I’m not here to tell people they should or shouldn’t use regenerators or whatever else. I’m just pointing out (when I know) and questioning (when I don’t know) why something may or may not have an effect.

Cheers

[M0N]

@GZF

For me if a component requires pristine power rather than being deigned to handle various circumstances, I ask myself why the designer was lazy.

I feel like there’s likely a tradeoff somewhere due to that, not apples to apples but going back to the dac comparison, typically dacs that are overly picky on the digital source end up being able to scale higher than the ones that aren’t, but at the cost of performing worse on less than ideal setups, but I don’t know, not a designer or anything lol

@GZF

But naturally, we all have different value systems and conceptual priorities so whatever works for you is all good.

Pretty much, all depends on the specific situation, and there’s a setup for everyone out there (the tough part is just trying to find it lol)

@GZF

I’m not here to tell people they should or shouldn’t use regenerators or whatever else. I’m just pointing out (when I know) and questioning (when I don’t know) why something may or may not have an effect.

Same here, just noting my own experiences with the stuff, it’s all going to react differently depending on the setup at hand anyways

[Gothique]

@M0N

It depends, although I would say I’ve had better luck with digital stuff sounding good on the power plants rather than like amps

Oehlbach’s power plant box has a set of outputs labelled digital and a set labelled analog. The digital set are the filtered outputs and they specifically advise using them for dacs and streamers and against using them for amps.

[Souldriver]

@GZF

I recently had Decware Taboo and the entire thing buzzed like there’s no tomorrow. Threw in the CMX-2 and most (but not all) of the buzzing went away. It’s the only amp that’s ever done that. To me it points to a “not great” PSU design. I know Decware is a well regarded brand and many people love the products but that amp left a bad taste in my mouth (for other reasons as well).

On mine i did start hearing a low hum with no music on, it may (or may not) go away when i push music through, my bhc which was sensitive did not hum. All the quick logical changes and things i could unplug didnt affect it. It was plugged straight into the wall. I thought about a 3 but i am hesitant on the power stuff untill i am more solidified chain wise.

I would like to hear your impressions on the taboo, i would love if you dropped them in the decware thread, or you can dm me if you dont want to put it in a thread. I am lukewarm on it and wondering if i am just an outlier, or the taboo is not the decware for me, maybe their upcoming otl will fit better, or maybe the dec sound isnt for my ears.

[GZF]

Sure I’ll post something in there.

[GZF]

In Paul’s latest video (around 5:10 mark) he starts talking about power regenerators dropping around 15% of the power available from the wall. First time I’ve heard him say that. It may be why a lot of people find their amps do better directly off the wall. Even though Paul is trying to make the exact opposite point in this vid lol.

How much power for a regenerator?

[Polygonhell]

@GZF

In Paul’s latest video (around 5:10 mark) he starts talking about power regenerators dropping around 15% of the power available from the wall. First time I’ve heard him say that. It may be why a lot of people find their amps do better directly off the wall. Even though Paul is trying to make the exact opposite point in this vid lol.

They’re all rated for far less than a standard 15A circuit, and they shut off if you draw too much, though they allow momentary overdraws, so I’m not sure that’s the issue.

[dB_Cooper]

I wonder how much of PS Audio’s business comes from their Power Plants. It’s the only segment that they’re pretty much unchallenged in the industry as they practically own the segment. Just talking crap here but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the bedrock of PS Audio business.

[Polygonhell]

I actually don’t think so, but I’m only saying that because when I bought mine, they were built to order, and the guy building it pinged me to let me know when it would ship, so I would assume it was not a high volume thing.
That may have changed.
I’d assume most of there revenue is from the amp lineup, it’s certainly what they push.

[dB_Cooper]

@Polygonhell

it’s certainly what they push.

Then that’s probably the answer. I had an S300 and I wouldn’t judge a vendor by their entry level product, listless is the word I’d use to describe what I recall of it at the time.