Innuos thread, Statement / Zen / Pulse / Phoenix

Sovrce Gear
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This thread is for all equipment from Innuos.

https://innuos.com/

I have words i want to put on paper about my experiences and thoughts that i am trying to make sense of but tonight I am having trouble accepting the fact that software or worse yet a streaming service implementation can make a genuinely discernible difference in the sound signature of a well thought out and implemented system. :exploding_head:

I would like to talk about the InnuOS Sense 2.0, sense app in direct comparison to ROON at some point. I want to make sure i get many hours of quality listening time using the software before i start spewing blabber that may influence someone to spend some hard earned cash on equipment. I mention this because I am experiencing a big difference in the sound of my main listening rig tonight simply because i had to switch streaming services and I am having trouble accepting what my ears are hearing.

Anyway, if you own something from Innuos here is your thread… :pinched_fingers:

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I wish there were more input options on the back of the innuos stuff otherwise, they look like solid streamers. I suppose you could just get a DDC if you really needed to.

Same with the auralic stuff. I find their lightning DS app sounds a bit better than roon.

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Yes, the limit of USB only output bothered me for a while but it’s simply not an issue in my use case scenario at this time. I have had my ZENith MK3 for a few years now and initially the poor and frustrating software implementations forced me over to ROON. I love my ROON very much, it is convenient and finally operating well across all 4 of my different set-ups. Tonight though i was unable to log into the ROON servers which forced me switch my Innuos Sense software on and fully update my own server.

I’m currently in an extended listening session, well past my bedtime. I’m having trouble understanding the change in sound of my system. It smacked me in the face from the first few songs and now I don’t want to stop listening. Don’t get me wrong, my stuff sounded damn good on ROON, but it simply sounds different on the upgraded Sense software and i can’t stop listening. There’s simply “more of everything,” it’s wild and i just don’t understand how…:man_shrugging::person_shrugging::man_shrugging:

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There’s a lot of documentation on issues running Roon core or the Innuous streamers, including playback quality issues. Or are you just using it as a streamer.

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It’s hard to guess, I do know that the built in innuous software relies on really big in memory buffers, which might make a difference, since network and disk will be less frequently used while playing. The general opinion is they sound better with their built in player.

It’s also hard to know If any of these devices play with the digital input in anyway.

There was also at least one manufacturer (don’t remember which) that bypassed internal processing for the Roon endpoint, so it sounded different.

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No, it’s been my Roon core for a long while, i did not like using Ipeng when i first got the unit and i was forced to invest in ROON and i stuck to my “stubborn guns” and used it as my core. I was very excited when the initial Sense software was implemented but had no desire to move away from ROON. Tonight though, my thought process is much different, the sound is so different using the Sense 2.0, it’s a pretty big difference, substantial…

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Worth reading through the innuous threads on the Roon forum, the general consensus is what you are saying, basically a significant drop off in quality when using it as a Roon core, lots of theories as to why, as I said above, hard to guess why.
FWIW using the Roon experimental mode was supposed to be closer to the innuous software IIRC.

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Yes, to all @Polygonhell, it seems i will be spending the next few days coming up with a plan to figure out how to get music on my other 3 systems, I need to see if there is anything in the house i can use as a ROON core, the Innous will not be going back to ROON core duty if i can help it, My preference is for the Sound signature i hear now as opposed to before.

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Color this lumin user jealous of having a streamer with a good native app. Even if all i do is just listen to my local files on random.

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I think this is where the investigating needs to focus.

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I stayed up half the night last night swapping out speakers in disbelief of my ears. It seems i have a totally “new” and completely different system in my home and it did not cost me a single penny. I have had one killer upgraded component in my home for a long while now and had NO IDEA it was even in my possession…what am i talking about? My Innuos ZENith MK3 streamer. Wow just wow, what a difference it made to use the unit with a different software configuration.

The Innuos Folks make a high end streamer called the Statement, that thing is very expensive and depending on how much memory you want and which PSU (power supply unit) you desire it costs anywhere from $16k to $25k….that’s allot of money. It comes with upgraded clocks, upgraded USB regeneration, dual chassis design for upgraded power and fancy pants internal parts. This is too rich for me personally, so they also make 6 less expensive units for the rest of us common folk to choose from.
ZenMini, Zen, Zenith, PulseMini, Pulse, Pulsar and lastly there is an add on LPSU for the ZenMini and Zen you can add for 2 more configurations….

All these units today, will allow you to use their in-house software called Innuos Sense vs2.0 to operate and stream using a multitude of optional paid for streaming services like Quoboz, Tidal, Spotify etc. (the list and abilities are growing as they grow in-house in their own abilities). Lastly since they were a hardware manufacturer first and took on the software later on asnthe company grew, they also added the ability for users to use their equipment as ROON cores or endpoints. Edit: you can also use your own files and some units have the ability to rip discs too.

Why am i listing all this stuff out? Well because it is complicated and i did NOT understand all of the differences and nuances a few years ago when i was first building out my source. There is a world of difference between what i understand, believe, comprehend and desire today, what qualities i want in my equipment and what end results i am trying to accomplish when spending my hard earned cash. The previous evening’s lessons have been both eye-opening and knowledge enhancing, thus i want to capture everything i can in writing before the key details are forgotten by my often time befuddled mind.

Key take away, SYNERGY, when a company and other conesuers of a hobby have similar experiences, perk up your ears and listen. (The internet is a partially lawless wild landscape where anyone can say anything and sifting through all the words takes discipline and care, it’s literally a minefield where lies and half-truths will shred you to pieces.) I have known for years that the Innuos equipment was NOT the best match for being used as ROON cores. I have dabbled on and off with their experimental mode, but the interface has always been buggy in my home and i have had limited success with it. Thus i settled into using the standard ROON core operating system snd have lived w/ it for a long while.

Take-away # 2, FML, software will absolutely impact your sound and how your equipment reproduces its output. My main 2 channel rig Using my Innous Zenith Mk3 as a ROON core sounds one way. The same exact speakers, DAC and amplifiers using the Zenith Mk3 running its current in-house software called Sense 2.0 doing streaming duties for Quoboz, internet radio and my own damned files have a completely, (and i mean wow different) sound output! :exploding_head: The sound is so different in every fucking way that i can honestly say it is like listening to different equipment, not like making a small change, we are talking holy shit, is this my gear? Level of difference. It was a stupid level revalation, completely different sound signature. ——-> Yay me, i win and for once it didn’t cost my a dollar :money_mouth_face: i have a brand new completely different sound signature to listen to off each damned piece of equipment i own, that’s allot of combinations in my home….it will take me years to go through all the variations and possibilities.

Take-away #3, every stupid thing you change, be it power, cables, software, front-end, back-end, speakers, room configuration, seating position…just about everything CAN affect what you hear. The variations are endless, at some point you need to simply enjoy what you get your stuff to do. You can discuss and argue over percentages of “better”, “worse”, “different” endlessly, and tweak some things more than others.

If you own an Innuous streamer or plan on purchasing one do your homework on how you will use it. There is nothing wrong with my unit, on the contrary I am extremely pleased to know that it will provide me with a variety of joy for hopefully many years to come. Thank you for allowing me to babble :hugs:

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I’m not sure whether to congratulate or console you. What I’m really eager to understand is if it’s a Roon Core issue or indeed the folks at Innuous are making a better sounding native ecosystem.

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I have emailed Innuous in an attempt to better understand what I can do next. Can I use the ZENith as a core to run ALL my stuff off their Sense software? On their kit it is clearly superior to anything ROON sounds like, it’s not as fancy as ROON but it does NOT add additional cost and they are heavily invested in upgrading the GUI so I assume they will eventually add more features and such. It’s perfectly useable now though and it would save me over $100 a year and I’m not saying it sounds superior, but different enough in a such a good way I want the rest of my stuff using the same software and source. Maybe I have all this wrong and simply opened a can of SPEND ASS for myself, not sure yet, I lost allot of sleep, I’m tired and all this computer stuff is very confusing to me… :tired_face: I need to go plug my record player into something and listen to some records while i figure out what to do next.

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Yeah, no such luck. That’s part of what Roon does is turn every device endpoint into an addressable streamer. Do replicate that Roon endpoint experience you have to buy additional Innuos devices and place them in front of your DAC and they would connect to your Zen Mk 3. So it gets costly if you have multiple listening stations.

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Hmmm why does it seem like almost every streamer sounds worse running room than their native or even non native other software :thinking:

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The prevailing theory on the roon forums is the Innuos servers are just very under powered, and roon core isn’t designed to run on boxes like that, it’s continually doing network access, and disk access. The act of those systems being powered on or the extra CPU increases the noise in the box. That makes it onto the USB, and you have a degraded signal.
Roon also for example does not suggest using the USB out from a Roon Rock to drive a DAC. It’s intended to just be a server.

There are advantages to being “underpowered” in a streamer if you have “enough” power. I’ve speculated that you’d be better off with say a 100MHz ARM core running an RTOS in a streamer than the GHz plus solutions you see in streamers running Linux. But the software is so much easier on the latter that’s pretty much what we get.

My understanding is it’s a part of the Innuous philosophy is minimizing the power of the components to limit noise, that requires they write their software in a way that works to minimize load on that hardware.

It’s just speculation, but it’s not terrible speculation, it certainly won’t have anything to do with interrupt latency, or insufficient CPU, those would manifest as dropouts or pops.

I’ve looked at a number of streaming network protocols, they are all more complicated than needed, some of them are idiotic (using HTTP as a protocol) in design for just local streaming. Unfortunately RAAT, Roon’s standard isn’t documented (it’s proprietary), it ought to be straight forwards, they do publish their design requirements and the only onerous one was loose “sync” accros audio zones. But who knows.

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There is something about UPNP and such running separate streamers using Sense software and an ethernet out on the InnuOS product that will feed other devices along with some network ability, it’s just complicated for me to follow… I am open to advice

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My advise would be to first, simply put a dedicated Roon server on your network, not your Innuous Mk3 and start from there. I have a server here that I’m not using after I bought my NUC that I’d gladly give to you to try out to see how it works out for you.

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Ok, I’m somewhat following along here. I absolutely like what the Innuous Zenith/Sense combo sounds like. Everything about the output is “more”. Detail, separation, blackness, and space, all qualities i value greatly in my main 2 channel rig. I have written to Innuous to work directly with them in better understanding the direction they are going with their software development and equipment integration. I plan on spending the weekend listening and learning, thus giving me a better understanding of what’s going on in my own home and cataloguing the variety of gear i have to figure out what my next step may be.

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Yes, that’s what I’ve been trying to say in the other Roon thread. I bet my experiences are not as extreme as Nick’s, but there is a detectable drop off in quality when using Roon. I get it though, Roon definitely has nice UIX and nothing else will allow me to have different music playing in different rooms throughout the house.

I’ve gone back and forth multiple times. Roon is my set it and forget it, while Squeeze is for my critical listening.

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