High-end M40x Upgrade?

Headphones
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Hey, peoples! :v::upside_down_face: Hoping I might get some help here hunting down this White Whale I’m searching for, on my way toward a 007.

So I recently got an M40x and M50x, and the M40x is actually quite impressive! A clean, clear, very balanced “studio” type sound, with satisfying bass kick, that’s overall simply very enjoyable and engaging. It actually sounds like music, and not just a headphone/device. Details are easy to hear. I would say it only lacks soundstage(none) and fine upper refinement & air(typical, and acceptable, for closed backs).

Any ideas on what a high end version of the M40x’s enjoyable “studio” sound might be…? The general balance(mids to treb) has to be great. The bass has to be great(likely raised from neutral). At least some amount of actual soundstage. Open or closed, doesn’t matter; whatever makes this sound happen.

Verite? LCD-4/5? AEON RT/2/Noire? AWAS? Fostex 610?

(Amp: 3XP+3A supercharger. DAC: Gungnir)

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My general impressions of stuff I’ve tried so far…(to be continued)

HiFiMan: Neutral focused, with a bit over-elevated treble(fatigue spikes). The one I’ve really liked was HE6 v1, and didn’t care for HE400, HE500, HE400SE, HE6 v2 “SE”, or Edition XS(too pure neutral, and too much treble quantity to be enjoyable).

Senn: I am fond of HD660, because of the reduced detail veil and nice, open spaciousness compared to the HD600 sound, but this is obviously a pretty limited headphone/driver. Otherwise, the rest were mixed bags of veiled, soft bass, or lacking refinement: 560, 598, 650, 700.

AKG: Alright balance, generally too distant stage presentation, nothing outstanding or remarkable about the sound. 702, 712, 553 MKII, maybe 602?

Beyer: Dislike the treble, and most of the rest of the sound… Except 880 and 300 R are alright. 770, 880, 990, 700, 900, old T1 I have no memory of the sound.

AT: Love the huge sound of AD700X/900X, but generally their sound is so wonky and unusual. AD700X, 900X, 900, 1000X, 2000X, W1000z, R70x(all warmth, no real bass or noteable detail/treble).

Audeze: Had a great experience testing these in a store, with LCD-3 being tied with HE6 v1 as my #1 favs so far, from memory. LCD-2, 3, Mobius(very good, but rather “standard” flavor of sound).

Stax: L300 was my definitive upgrade answer to HD600. The sound was fast and interesting, with a really plump mid-bass kick(+12bD EQ!), but it was still very mid-fi, and I’m sure the 252s energizer was mainly to blame for why I sold the system. L300 LTD, alright, but again nothing amazing with the 252s. Currently saving up for 007mk2 as my first end-game phone.

Misc: HarmonicDyne Zeus(just too vague and indistinct all around), GL2000 double-sided(very interesting treble tonality/presentation, but not so well balanced overall).

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Hmmmmm. Honestly I’ve never even thought about what would be a direct m50/40x upgrade, not really sure. Have you tried a LCD X? They can be a really mixed bag depending on what you get since qc is inconsistent, but it could potentially be what you are looking for, good synergy with your amp as well. Way more expensive but I actually bet you might really like a final d8000 pro given what you like about the m40x but I can’t say they sound anything alike lol (same for the lcd x), would work well enough with your source chain but you would def want to upgrade down the line. I also wonder if a diana phi could be something you might enjoy although amp wise you’d want to upgrade as well but I do think you could get by with what you got

(assuming you are still running the soloist 3xp w/ sc + gumby)

Now, I actually wonder, actually have you tried a fostex th900? The normal tuned one might be too forward in the treble for you (possibly? Could be ok), but a ltd would be a safer bet

An aeon 2 might be interesting, but really not sure

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I have not tried any Denons/Fostex, except one older mid-level one, maybe… Clear was a no-go. Never heard LCD-X 2021(or XC/GX/MX4/4/1), but it seems highly recommended! Not against Verite, however lol.

I am thinking of trying AEON RT, 2, and NOIRE next, assuming there’s a 15 day return window or whatever, to get the Dan Clark stuff out of the way.

I am really thinking this has to be a dynamic, to provide that satisfying kind of bass and kick the M40x has… Since I don’t recall a planar sounding like that. LCD-3 bass was insane, for sure, though.

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Out of curiosity what did you like about the clear and what did you not like, also what source chain was it on? I ask since that’s a somewhat more neutral monitor sound which kinda fits your description a bit

MX4 as well. I don’t know if the 4 or z would be worth your time given what you want

Not a bad idea, just make sure to burn it in a lot

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So I tried the Clear back on my A30 Pro + BF2. I recall a metallic tone. Maybe a very intimate, closed sound? There just wasn’t much out of it :confused: And I feel the general sound would/should NOT change DRASTICALLY with a better amp or DAC, so I returned it and currently am not a Focal fan lol.

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If you really aren’t a fan of it I wouldn’t revisit it, but it can drastically change with different sources, all those issues you mention are tell tale signs of a lackluster pairing imo, kinda a focal staple, the utopia is one of the most amp picky headphones I have ever encountered. But try other stuff first like the lcd x or perhaps th900. DCA is the safest bet if you can try and send back if you don’t like them

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TH900 obliterates 610, I assume?

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I was wondering whether it’s something to do with Audio-Technica, and if so, maybe consider the ADX5000?

@M0N shall this belong to the general headphones help thread btw?

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Yeah, I dunno. I haven’t heard any of their other studio phones besides M50x, which is a slight retune of M40x. The sound of M40x/50x are very well balanced, which is a sound very much unlike all other AT’s I’ve heard so far. (I also haven’t heard that many studio focused phones in general). Perhaps the mids are a little forward, bringing out detail a little more evenly than other brand’s studio phones…? Are you familiar with the M40x’s sound?

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Yeah I can attest to that. I ran my clear on a thx 789 for a good while and it’s as you’ve described it. But using a whole different chain with synergy in mind got rid of those issues completely. Though if you can trial other hps more easily go for it

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@CT007 assuming you are still using the soloist I think the LCD-X 2021 revision would be a good pair. I actually just sold my LCD-X local to a gentleman and he paired it with a soloist. He messaged me a few days later to gush to me how much he loved it.

His words…

Neil's Impressions

[quote=]
I got to listen for a few hours yesterday. I think the 2021 revision is a home run, better than the old ones in every way. There’s less apparent bass, but I attribute that to the fact that they actually have a glorious open midrange and beautiful treble response to balance out that Stygian bass response. To me, they are more transparent, naturally detailed, and overall better balanced than the older version I had (as I recall), while still retaining that sexy warm side of neutral quality. The old ones were great, don’t misunderstand me, but these are best if class. I don’t know if you’re a phono cartridge guy, but it’s like going from a Koetsu black to an urushi - you can still tell it’s a Koetsu by its natural, organic musicality, but everything is tightened up a few notches for the good. To me, these are much in the same category - and they mate perfectly with my Burson Soloist amp which has power to spare (for limitless but not exaggerated bottom end) and a very neutral overall presentation. I’ve only had LCD-2 Fazor (which were way too wooly for me) and now this is my second pair of LCD-X, and they tick off all the right boxes - even the ones the older ones I had (and missed the minute I sold them) might have missed. They give me everything I love about my reference Sennheisers, but they bring it up to Mercedes-Benz levels, both in build quality and sound. In case you can’t tell, I’m very happy - these are just what I wanted. ‘Nuff said.
[/quote]

While i will contend the warmer side of neutral part as I believe they are neutral neutral, i did speak to him for a while when he picked up the set and he had a decently impressive speaker set up and has been into audio for a while.

I would say the 2021 revision should have solved the driver variances, and unlike the earlier models I did not need EQ.

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From a technical perspective yes, assuming you have a decent source chain since the 900s are a lot more picky (you do)

I was really thinking that as well, but I worry there won’t be enough low end or more accurately it’s too light in the bass (not necessarily in prominence depending on the chain, but more in the fact that it’s very light, technical and nimble, but not that weighted or harder hitting). But it is a very well balanced neutral signature and I think it would have the aspects you like otherwise. I think it would be alright with the soloist but that amp is not my first pick for those headphones

I think this is a specific and detailed enough thread to keep it on its own imo

The 5k while still has some of the AT tuning is unlike it’s predecessors and something I’d consider fairly neutral slightly bright on some setups, so it’s why I’d still potentially consider it if you didn’t like older AD models, since it’s a departure from those tuning wise

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Does anyone actually have an M40x on hand, to maybe help describe it’s sound presentation better…? I suppose I have been assuming people have heard it, which may not be the case lol. Using Velvet pads, currently. (FR=stock pads)

fr-athm40x
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I used to own a pair, before that I owned an M40 for a very long while. I would describe the sound with a pad swap as firmly v shaped with a strong emphasis on the bass side. Bass is kind of loose, fuzzy and fun, mids are stepped back but tighter. Treble is there but kind of muffled and hazy. I wouldn’t personally call them neutral. I currently own a pair of ATH MSR7b and they remind me of the M40x but better in all regards, treble has the most improvement but can sometimes be a bit piercing as a result.

I remember the M40x as being fun, great at bassy music but hard to listen to once I moved up to better headphones. I have found that my taste has changed as I have done so. I’ve a better idea of what headphones can be like. I still do like a good fun V but there are other, equally interesting flavours.

I also really like the HD660s and I think that is the kind of sound you are after, warm leaning, punchy, full and a little bit in your face? What are you after that the 660s does not give you?

On personal experience, which is perhaps more limited than many here, my suggestion is to look at trying out the Denon 7200 or 9200. I’m looking at them for my fun and punchy option, especially the 7200 which apparently leans warmer.

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I have an M50x here, though I’d have to look for a cable. I couldn’t find one last time I wanted to use it.
My recollection are similar to @Gothique, it’s a V shape, slightly elevated Bass, the M40 has a bit less treble (again if I remember correctly). It’s not particularly resolving, stage wasn’t anything special.
I’m not sure there is a direct step up from it

They were very popular a few years ago, pushed quite heavily by various sites as THE entry level headphone, then there was a bit of a back lash. A lot of people EQ’d them though.

I think you have to read beween the lines for what the OP is asking, finds the HD600 to have Soft Bass, so he’s looking for more Bass impact, possibly Audeze or Focal fit the bill there, maybe Fostex/Denon, or ZMF Biodynamics, though I suspect he’d find those soft.

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Funnily enough, I was never recommended an M40x for music-listening, but I remember it being recommended a bunch for use cases like podcasting and video editing and stuff. I personally bought a 7506 and HD25 for those use cases before I arrived in audiophile-land, so I can’t speak to the M40x, but good luck finding the sound you’re after!

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I owned an M40x for a long time. My first pair of “audiophile” cans. Sold them about two or three years ago.

First thing I remember – and will never forget – was the discomfort. Easily the most uncomfortable headphones I’ve ever used. My ears were on fire with blazing pain due to shallow pads and my ears slamming against the driver grilles. I don’t miss that.

Bass was a bit flabby but tolerable. Mids were fine. But good Lord, the treble was spiky and grainy as hell. Just collapsed into mush with any complex music.

The M40x were the gateway drug to audiophilia for me, so I’ll be grateful to them for that reason. But I don’t miss them one bit.

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I was looking for a closed set back in the M50 hype phase. I went to B&H to demo them, a vmoda, and an ultrasone hfi780.

I couldnt figure out why people liked the m50. The vmoda was better and more rich sounding, but the ultrasone was the winner for me.

I dont think trying for an m40x but better is the best way to go, but looking into something V shaped with a upward bass tilt will probably yield the best results.

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Sounds pretty accurate :slight_smile: In your face = details are easy to hear? Or I suppose that could mean elevated mids, or general treble(see FR graph edited into previous post). I don’t like phones that sound far away from the music, like K702/712, nor a straight up claustrophobic, depthless sound. Just something in between, where things don’t sound hidden.

So I do have high regard for HD660(less so for 600, 650 and R70x) in its price bracket, because of the refreshing, spacious stage, and improved clarity over 600. The sound is still rather smoothed/soft, and that ancient Sennheiser bass is just sad. Coming from 660, I would expect something like 2-4x treble resolution, and 4-8x bass performance improvement, with more bass elevation / much less rolloff. A more engaging sound. Edition XS, in comparison, I find too pure neutral, too little bass presence, and too trebley to be enjoyable.

Listening to M40x more, I definitely like the amount of mid-bass it has, but after that there seems to be a pretty quick rolloff, so totally lacking lower bass lol. Impact is definitely a +, yes, as well as actual bass texture, not just vague thumping.

Huh… I don’t know anything about Ultrasone, or that they had $3500 phones!

(M40x stock pads): It sure isn’t a straight line lol, but it sounds well balanced!

fr-athm40x
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Reason why I was mainly thinking the lcd x or the d8000 pro was because of this, forward, more intimate and in your face but not overly so, great resolving power, very clear treble and bass, more generally u shaped but even enough, lots of depth on both, and good bite on both

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