correct.
correct.
Well, when you’re actually using the Pi2AES. lol in your use case, you’re not benefiting from it.
Don’t be confused, use whatever sounds best to you. Forums are for suggestions, not to tell you what’s best.
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Yep i do agree with that, the problem is that it is in my nature to want to understand these things, so i always have that in the back of my mind, and as we all know, the differences in the audio quality are small to a point i may not be able to tell the difference between USB or COAX or I2S (i also have an HDMI cable for that)
Because of that i would really like to understand which one out of those is THEORETICALLY the best.
I know COAX for example will not reach bitrates as high as USB, but then again even at lower bitrates i would maybe be benefiting from the Pi2AES audio hat? That is the type of think i would like to know for peace of mind if that makes sense…
Don’t overthink it.
If your concerned listen to both and pick the one you like better.
There is no right and wrong in this. IME having spent way too much time comparing USB to various other inputs, assuming it’s not a broken USB implementation, it’s not a huge difference. On the DAC’s I have here. I could live with USB, AES or COAX into the Pacific
On cheap hassle free streamers, the WiiM boxes are quite good, but they don’t have USB out, just optical and Coax.
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The big difference is where the audio clock originates.
USB has no clock with the signal, so the DAC has to generate it, so it sticks the incoming stream of data in a buffer and clocks it out. It’s a bidirectional protocol so it can pause the incoming stream if the buffer fills.
AES/COAX/SPDIF are all variations on the same thing, the audio signal is sent at the output rate, i.e. it is the clock, in the simplest implementation, the DAC has to generate an audio clock from the incoming data. In practice most DAC’s use a PLL to filter that clock and make it “better”. And some will in effect discard it and “reclock” it, though your still limited by how good the input clock is.
With the higher quality streamers, the bet is the streamer clock is better than the DAC clock.
Which is “better” depends on what streamer you have and how your DAC deals with USB, some literally just convert USB to SPDIF internally, in which case there is a very good chance, the external streamer will be better, since the streamer manufacturer has more motivation to put an expensive XTal on the board.
A more integrated design would convert the incoming USB directly to the required signal for the DAC chip, (probably i2s), and they likely have additional silicon to deal with AES/SPDIF etc.
Short version none of this really matters, just listen and forget about it.
I’m very much in the obsessed by details bucket, the way I get over it is I have a rule, if I can’t decide if something is definitively better (and I don’t mean just different) I don’t worry about it.
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Hi all, I’m considering downsizing my source gear as much as possible without sacrificing too much. Currently, I’m thinking about a Bifrost 2 + Jot 2 combo. Any other suggestions for a decent combo that keeps cost and desktop footprint small, without completely giving up on sound quality? Thanks.
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It helps a bit if you tell us which HP you want to max out, there are some well documented combos that have been thoroughly reviewed and tested thst may be exactly what you desire 
Thanks for your reply. My main headphone going forward will be Fostex TH900 mk2. I also have the Sennheiser HD600 and a JM Audio XTC open.
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I’d consider a RNHP amp, great synergy with the BF2 and your TH900. Don’t know how it would work with the JM Audio and the HD600 is not a great fit. But it’s a small amp that scales very well with an ifi Elite power supply.
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I did some listening tests yesterday morning to discern how close R8ii is as a DAC to another DAC that I’d consider a price appropriate fair fight - CMA Twelve Master’s DAC section.
It was tricky to ignore the differences in tonality, with the Twelve Master sounding dead neutral and the R8ii coming over warmer/meatier. Although it was pretty close, surprise, surprise, the Questyle edge out the Hiby in terms of resolution.
Because of the differences in tonality, I found it difficult to pick them apart at times in terms of performance and do not wish to make any detailed claims past this. I thought the R8ii was fairly neutral but the mid bass bump was quite obvious in comparison. The Questyle’s HPA output gets that reference/musically neutral balance just right, but the DAC itself was boarding on too neutral for the already neutral chain of the P2 and Cosmo; it came across punchy but almost lean. The Questyle’s stage sounded bigger, airier and there was more space between the sonic images. I think this is where Hiby’s slight mid bass elevation hindered it’s staging. I have found that mid bass really skews my perception of stage and image separation. I first thought this when I got a HE1000v2 Stealth and have found it to be true to my ears since. I realise that the R8ii is near infinitely customisable, however, I do find the tonality of the Hiby lends itself well to this chain.
It’ll be interesting to see if I can find a DAC that adds the weight that the Hiby brings but additional resolution and staging that the Questyle offers. I’m still satisfied that the Hiby can pull double duty as a DAC and a transport for now, but it’s future is that of a transport. L
Gotta keep tight reigns on my budget for the next 24 months as my wedding approaches and we start to plan our move, but I feel like I’m very close to being satisfied with this headphone chain already since getting out of the headphone game only a few months ago and then jumping back in a few weeks ago…
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The best hunter is not the one with the best aim, its the one with the most patience
At this point im sure you can estimate more or less how much the amount of improvemente youre looking for is (in terms of expensive)
Depending on how much youre willing to spend it sounds like a good idea to go (with a good) r2r
It sounds like your budget is limited so my personal recommendation for what you want is the Denafrips ares 15th + iris 12th (try to find both used and get a decent usb cable)
There are many many DACs in the used market that pop up that can do what you ask for but to me the ares 15th + iris 12th seems to be the best bang for buck, if you later think on a specific budget that would help.
There are plenty weighty dacs with good detail starting with the (not so weighty anymore) $800 bifrost 2/64 but specially above
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Oh I am not patient 
I already bought a VMV D1se it popped up on eBay for 1/3 RRP and I managed to shave another £50 off that. It’s not necessarily going to be the one, but I used to have one and quite liked it.
There are one or two Ares floating about on eBay right now. I’ll keep an eye out - thank you for the recommendation. I’m aware of their reputation but have never heard one. I have previously had an OG BF2, but the Gumby MB I also had beat it. Hell, I may even pick up another one of those. A BF2/64 is still Wave Theory’s pick under $1000 I believe and I put some stock in his opinion, but they’re fairly uncommon in the U.K.. I’m quite curious about the Ares so I may track one of those down.
I don’t have a specific budget - just as little as possible whilst beating R8ii. I am looking to get off this rollercoaster though so if the D1se pairs well with the P2 and Cosmo, I may call it a day …for now.
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Better be careful and do your due dillingence if you have some shorter patience!
I suggested the Ares 15th + Iris cause I think theyre really good for what you asked at a reasonable price but they may take some time to appear at an used priced thats worth it.
Also I thought the Ares 15th bundle was probably enough cause its a nice upgrade to the CMA12Ms DAC with a bit more body and a bit more detail but now I realize
- I have never heard the VMV or R8ii, im not fully aware what my suggestion is going against
- I believe the amount of upgrade I suggested was enough but you might be looking for a larger amount.
For example, the Denafrips above the Ares 15th, the Pontus 15th (which is way larger and heavier than the ares, youd have to consider space in this example) may be a better option given more budget and space, which I have no clue of neither.
Of course there are options other than denafrips, maybe try to gather info, I would personally try to Pontus 15th + Hermes 12th or Ares 12th because I do have the space to place it and Id rather make a large jump than many smaller ones, as of late 2 Pontus 15ths have been spotted for $1500, an used iris goes for $400 or less and its a very nice upgrade to either DAC.
Also theres many more brands and options that may do for you, try to look around and ask, for example, keeping the topic on Denafrips, the previous Pontus (Pontus 2) is not that hard to find for $1200, I like the 15th revisions because they took away a good chunk of body and weight to add a grat deal of detail and IMO better presentation, but maybe a heavy, dense, warm presentation like pontus’ 2 may work for you.
Again, no idea, theres not enough info, TBH the Ares 15th+Iris12th might just actually be what you need but give them a lot of research and wait for a good price to pop.
The main takeaway either try to stablish a budget, definitely research on more models of dacs, ask around, and if you find something you think is a good deal ask here on SONUS to make sure it actually is.
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Was at the dealer demoing things, and one combo just clicked with me, was so good, rich, impactful, liquid, just flowing beauty.
Wifi > Cayin N7 dap (streamer/dac) > 4.4mm to xlr interconnect (ddhifi) > Schiit Mj3 > Abyss Joal (suede non ported pads).
The enjoyement and musicality of this made me question all my spendings.
So anyone compared this Cayin to other streamers or dacs? Basically how good it is compared to dedicated solutions. Didn’t have time to compare it to other things there.
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i have the cayin N7 + cavalli audio liquid gold +D8k pro and it’s a beautiful sound like you described.
But when i listen with the ultrarendu+matrix x spdif 2 (aes)+merason dac1 mk2 as source instead of the N7 i immediately hear more bite, treble sparkle and energy while remaining beautiful and natural.
i dont know if it’s a fair comparison though
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Came here to also spread the love and awareness of how insanely good N7’S DAC is, I never streamed but I did use it quite a bit as a portable DAC, and a desktop DAC which it had no trouble working as.
I actually think its DAC sounds better than Cayin’s N8ii
I used 4.4mm to 4.4mm, or 4.4m to dual XLR line outs.
….
With my limited experience the most fair comparison I can make is that it might be just as good as a 1.2k desktop Holo Cyan used from USB. Its easily as good as a 1k desktop r2r from a few years ago and its very easy to match with amplifiers with its very energetic sound but greatly controlled sibilance and treble.
Its definitely better than the denafrips ares 2 -now called enyo 15th- is to my ears (with quite a different signature) and Id also pick it over a schiit bifrost 2 (again signature) but that would only be the case if those were used directly via USB, if those and the holo cyan from before were connected to a proper DDC and/or streamer I wouldnt be confident anymore, but that doesnt remove the fact that the N7 DAC still sounds great and I think they would be very close.
The problem with N7’s DAC is that it CANT simply be improved through a simple ddc and/or desktop streamer like these desktop dacs can. Thats were it loses its advantage against Desktop dac around 1k (now plus the cost of the accesory which isnt cheap).
The DAC I think starts beating out the N7 through USB no accesories is the Denafrips Ares 15th, there was a big jump from ares 2 (now enyo 15th) and now this is a $1200 desktop dac powerhouse, r2r just like N7 and with a much more detail oriented signature than before, plus bundled with its matching DDC the Iris 12th for $1650 it starts easily outclassing the N7 in many many ways.
…….
By the way I only paid $900 for my n7 just 11 months after it came out which meant I was outperforming many desktop dacs with a device that can do so much more than just “DAC”
To end this story, similar to the comment above, I no longer own the N7 as I uograded to a questyle QPM but I had my desktop dac:
Laptop>Matrix Xspdif3>Exogal Comet+ fully upgraded>Amp
Even though this chain was and is better at basically everything than N7’s DAC I would still use it occasionally just because its signature was more energetic and it never really took away from the enjoyment knowing I had a much better DAC chain right beside, on the opposite I was very amused how the small device could provide such a cool DAC experience even next to my main digital chain.
Hope youre enjoying your Joaol! Mac.
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Thanks for this, explains why I liked it so much.
Loving its energetic powerful sound, so much oomph. Don’t want to listen to anything else lol. The MR I tried sounded thin compared to it, the lcd-4z I had also sounded “softer”.
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Thats insightful at least to me, the abbys joal might end up being the new “diana v2” in the future as in an amazing planar to buy used when it drops in price with nice tunning and physycality
Keep in mind the demo you tested was using a fun, punchy, slightly mid forward DAC with an amp that also has all of those traits with a slightly neutral tonality.
And the amp, MJ3, Is specially good with headphones like the Joal (which im just assuming is bit like diana v2 I may be wrong).
I dont know what youre using it with but since you really like it your chain is also clearly working as well.
I think the Diana MR was too expensive for too few innovation
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Chain update:
Firstly, thank you @MacDLaw for recommending an Ares II. I got the 12th edition, so not the 15th, but it adds juuust the right amount of weight to the sound that the CMA Twelve Master’s DAC was missing. Stage depth has increased quite a lot from the R8ii; width has increased, too. Image size and separation have also increased. Timbre and the overall tonal balance of my chain seems almost dead on to me now - quite exciting.
Now that I’m quite close to what I want from my system, I only need to make a few more tweaks. One small misstep I have already made was getting a Custom Cans headphone cable for the Cosmo. I’m sure they’re an upgrade from a bad stock cable, but the Moondrop cable sounds good. The Custom Cans cable did at least emphasise that, although the P2 is driving the Cosmo well, the treble reproduction on P2 is not up to scratch; it sounds grainy/low res almost (makes cymbal hits on Tool’s track ‘Lateralus’ sound almost like white noise). The Custom Cans cable make me pay really close attention to the treble of the P2 this afternoon during my first real listening session with the Ares II (listening during work doesn’t count as it is maybe getting 60 % of my brain’s attention); I heard this when I had the D1se the other week, but I thought it was that DAC. For a cable, I’m going to go for an Arctic Agento in the near future, unless I spot a reasonably priced, better silver cable for similar money.
So the P2 is now just a place holder for something as capable but more refined - a Flux Mentor. From what I understand, the Mentor is my endgame. However, there’s no point is making this journey too short is there? So, I’ve just purchased a Kinki THR-1. I’ve had one before and as mentioned in one of my above posts, it was brilliant; it just didn’t pair well with my HEkse and so it went. I’ll be curious to hear a THR-1 again, there is a good chance I’ll stop there, but curiosity will likely get the better of me…
Another somewhat misstep is my DDC purchases… I bought a U18, an Iris 12th AND also an SU-6. AliX sales… 
I’ll probably save myself the time and just return the Gustard and Denafrips, as I understand the SU-6 is more capable and the most transparently tuned.
I do also have one eye on a Laiv uDAC. When it popped up in my YouTube feed a few months ago, I dismissed it as the flavour of the month. But I’ve read a bit more about it and it sounds like with a LPS and a good DDC, it punch enough above it’s weight to warrant it being an upgrade over my Ares II 12th. Alls I know now is that, outside of my gripes with the P2, this chain sounds incredible. Like a magpie, shiny new cans may get my attention, but I am in little doubt that I have picked the right headphone to build my system around. I just wish someone else had a bloody Cosmo so I can talk to someone else about it!
Just listened to some of my favourite tracks/test tracks, Tool ‘Lateralus’, Oceanize ‘Catalyst’, David Gilmore ‘Between Two Points’, Karnivool ‘We Are’, plus the whole Buffy the Vampire Slayer soundtrack (don’t laugh!) and it all sounds incredible. It’s so easy to follow the bass guitar on Catalyst for instance, or get a good sense of the room the drums were recorded in for ‘We Are’. I do not enjoy analysing my system as I just want to kick back and enjoy the music, but this afternoon, fortunately, the former became the latter because I had so little to complain about.
Untidy, but it’s a work in progress:
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So I was doing some fall cleaning and found a very old CD Player that used to be my brothers (I’m the youngest so I received a lot of hand-me-downs).
I had to find a power cable (C7 detachable) to see if it fired up and to my surprise it works perfectly fine. I connected it to my trusty MZ3 via some Mogami Interconnects that I had and began listening. I chose Elton John’s Madman Across the Water, a favorite of mine that not only has great songs, but it’s an exceptionally recorded and mastered album (a Caribou Ranch recording). It’s a Japanese Import of Super High Density (?) version, so it’s a high quality disc. It sounded a little grainy and rolled off at both ends. The stage was small, but there was a naturalness to the sound. Prior to connecting it I peaked inside (forgot to take a picture) and saw some nice resistors and capacitors, but couldn’t see the DAC itself. I couldn’t tell if it was a dual sided mount where the DAC was on the bottom, or if it was on a board below the CD tray.
I searched the model to see if I could find anything and I found a physical copy of the owners manual. Fortunately they had a nice photo of the front page which had some specs listed. It lists the D-A system as a “2 DAC system with 16 Bit Resolution”. When I searched that term I get a few hits for Analog Devices R2-R chips.
Could this thing have an AD chipset?
After listening to Madman I left it powered on for a few hours and returned to listening and it sounded so much better. No longer grainy, and a little more focused. I know the capacitors and resistors have been sitting cold for at least a decade and likely longer so I’m sure it needed some serious warm up, but I’m not sure if it’s an R2-R or just an old Delta Sigma. The S/N Ratio is a lowly 96dB but that’s not saying much.
Here’s a photo of the old Panasonic SL-P3510 and a photo of the manual:
Any help in figuring out the DAC would be appreciated. I’ll still enjoy it regardless, but it’d be nice to know just for fun. I may end up getting a nicer WireWorld power cord or maybe a iFi for it later. The Mogami RCA’s are fine, I’ll just leave those as is. It’s nothings special, but it sounds pretty good.
Thanks!
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