If I had to pick ONE SS and ONE tube amp for all future headphones such as the ones listed, what would they be? ~$2-5K each
MySphere (3.2 is better…?)
Susvara
Atrium
RAD-0
LCD-4
HE1000V2
With what DACs?
What do you value in sound characteristics?
Used or new pricing?
Why both SS and tubes?
Which headphones are more important?
Why both Susvara and HEkv2?
2 Likes
I listen to lossless files (FLAC). I have a large CD collection which used to be huge. A decadeish ago, I convered them all to MP3s years ago and sold them to Ameoba. I started ripping to lossless several years ago. I’ve been buying CDs when i remember a CD i used to love or discover new music. I’m not gonna get into my vinyl situation lol.
3 Likes
I don’t know yet… I’ll have to pick something eventually lol. I feel like the amp is the easier, and safer, thing to start with. Something like Orchid/May L2/SW1X II SPX/Wavelight. (Using Border Patrol SE-i + A90D for now, with Holo Red incoming)
Treble: Very clear, clean & breathable, great sense of accurate 3D space, minimum fatigue. Clear rendering of air & reverb/effects. Great sense of depth, that starts fairly closely/personally. Detail that is easy/present enough to hear well, not too distant, subdued or hidden in the background.
Bass: Beefy & detailed, more mid than sub focus, full reach.
Mids: Uh… Clean & clear, but warm/bassy & natural is good, too? Engaging, rich vocals?
Any, but new/open box would be nice.
These are the only possible types, right? You don’t really want a wussie hybrid, when you can get a full tube! SS will be the main amp, I think, and the tube would be the ‘alternate flavor’ amp.
I can’t say, without hearing any yet lol. I suppose it would be the ones that match my sound preferences best? (which might be a Stax, and not any dynamic or planar)
If HE1000V2 has no advantage over Sus, then no point bothering. Haven’t heard either yet, so just what’s on my final shortlist.
I mean, instead of 2 cheaper amps you may be better off getting one damn nice amp. Something like an AIC, egoista, etc will just wreck everything below it.
Since you dont have a dac yet, what is your total budget? If you end up with 2 5k amps you will probabaly want to step hgher up the dac ladder than Wl tbh
EDIT: Reading over the last reply, I agree that getting a solid amp is a good place to start. I would personaly go for something like an Oor stack or maybe a bliss if you can find one ~2500. Those will both give you solid foundations to try a bunch of cans and fugure out what you actualy want from your chain.
Also, just FWIW, dont write off hybrids. They arent great in the lower range, but once you are talking several K they are plenty viable. That said, I may be a bit biased since I only own hyrbids now.
4 Likes
I would seriously consider 1 really good amp. Class A.
I would then recommend a good tube pre-amp or possibly hybrid tube amp that also has a pre-output. That will allow you a nice bit of variety.
Lastly, get at least a decent streamer and a solid mid-priced SS DAC. Sooo many to choose from.
That’s just me. 
Your budget, your desires. I do like having flexibility in my own systems 
4 Likes
I hadn’t thought of $2-5K as cheap, haha. But if it makes sense to skip a tube amp, and combine their powers/cost, I guess that is the real answer/solution! Good to hear there are clearly better amps up there.
Roughly $2-6K per component. Headphone, amp, DAC, digital source player, plus my Holo Red either as a network player or DDC. Plus probably Stax stuff eventually, which would need a special amp($7K+), which I’d like to use the same DAC for both systems(in a perfect world).
Both seem good! So I have to spend double or more to reach the level of AIC-10, Egoista 845, or whatever else there is? Seems like the 845 goes for $9K used often, AIC-10 rarely available(a speaker amp, too!). Would the 13r or 23r be at this level, for something more available?
I’m down with that lol. Whatever that amp is, haha.
1 Like
hahaha. i may be off the deep end, but im not that far off. I meant “cheaper than what you could get if you only get one item”
So, I wouldn’t realy say “skip the tube amp” as much as I would “diversifying means everything is a lower tier. That’s a totally fine decision, but I wanted to bring up that you can go higher if you focus on one chain”
Also, just fwiw, I find once you get to AIC/Egoista/WA33/HM1/etc level, amps start to have far less massive synergy miss steps. There are some great ~2k amps that also don’t really have any massive misses IME, but they give up more to be that forgiving than higher end amps do (orr for example pairs great with everything ive tried but can be a little bit saccharin and microdynamicly smooth to get there)
Honestly, this leaves a massive range. 2-6k per device means you could have a 6k or 24k chain depending on what all you are including. Recommendations will obviously vary wildly depending on where in that spectrum you are falling
Based on your sound wants from earlier, estats may or may not work for you (and that entirely comes down to what you want bass wise). While I don’t think its fair to call estats as a whole bass light on nicer chains, they wont be a 1266/fostex and will generally focus on raw speed over raw slam. Personally, I love this trait, but I also am not quite the bass head others are (I also prioritize sub-bass over mid-bass by quite a bit). Just FWIW, while it wont work for sus, Z10E can be had ~5k and works amazing for X9K and 1266.
Yah, at this top end availability becomes a massive issue. 9k for an egoista is IMO good value for SQ, but you need to make sure it fits your use case before you dive in (it also is a little more can picky than say AIC FWIW)
As for 13R/23R, no they aren’t all that close in SQ to AIC/Egoista. FWIW, I upgrade from 13R to AIC directly and the jump was honestly bigger than the previous jump from gsx-mini to 13R was. That said, 13R may be a good option for you. I never got it to sound how I liked, but I also never tried basically the recommended pairing of rockna with it. If you can snag one for 3k or so it may be worth trying with a spicier dac.
Going back to this for a sec:
Fatigue is something that will be hard to quantity without knowing what specific treble issues bother you (for example, any kind of unevenness above 8k or so makes my ears ring like a MF, but I seem far less sensitive to 5k peaks than a lot of people as well)
Outside of that though, tbh, I think you should try more stuff before jumping really deep in just to really figure out what you even like. What I would personally do if I were you would be to get a solid like 2-5k source chain to use as a basis for testing cans. I would avoid amps that can have some pretty bad synergy mis steps like mass kobo or GSX-mini. Unfortunately, I don’t have the best experience with desktop dacs in this price range, so I am not sure I can help very much (I was basically all portable and then skipped right over this budget when I went to desktop).
2 Likes
Ah, that’s great news! A lot of value in that, and really what you’d ultimately want in a product at that level.
I wouldn’t include the headphones as part of the system/chain, so that could easily/reasonably get me to a $20K system, and $20K of phones(assuming I actually find several I like enough to keep). Maybe only $7-10K for the Stax system, and only $10K for phones.
I forgot about this dual amp! Wonder if my A90D works better for Sus? 
Probably will be skipping the 1266, if that changes anything lol.
I don’t have a clear definition. I found HE6seV2 to have a lower peak, that I think HFM likes to do. XS was more bright and too energetic, but not really peaky. I think just keeping the treble a bit mellow /relaxed/subdued is always a good thing, but keeping all of the sparkle/shimmer/air/etc. HD800S seems like a good, maximum treble reference, as it sounds pretty correct and accurate to myself, without blatant peaks/issues. Less treble than HD800S could be better, but probably not more. HE66S, as I recall, was more relaxed and enjoyable, and maintained sparkle, detail & lushness. LCD-3 and 4 both sound relatively good and correct, but don’t have as much sparkle, lushness, or realism/transparency. I’ve heard a lot better treble in IEMs than headphones so far, so that doesn’t help me give many examples. HD600 is too masked and rolled. I recall LCD-GX sounding rather dull and thin/boring. 109 Pro treble was fine, but super fake metallic. The majority of treble fatigue I hear seems to appear with vocals mainly, otherwise elec guitar.
Which headphones would you start with, knowing my preferences? (No headphone can do everything great, of course; bass is where I expect the weakest point to be) Sus? MySphere? Expanse? RAD-0? Or go right to Stax first, and try a KGSSHV/Carbon + L700/007/009S?
A lot of good info and recommendations before me here so I’ll just add my two cents without repeating much of the others I hope:
- Start with figuring out your headphones, this will really dictate the amps and DACs to complete your system, not the other way around. System synergy is important but the headphone at the end is still #1 in what you’ll hear.
- I definitely took the route of going higher with one chain first and only then starting to look sideways for more versatility and flexibility in sounds. Both system building approaches (go deep vs go wide) are completely valid. It really depends if you have more primary genres or things you prioritize that you’d like the system to be able to do first.
- There are things that once you add them they will dominate your decisions - Susvara, electrostats are two great examples. Sus makes a lot of very good systems “not great” because they can’t drive the Sus but they are perfect for others. Electrostats usually requires more gear, is it really worth it?
- Susvara will still sound damn good on a lot of gear, even if it can sound much better on higher end more appropriate gear for it. It sounds good on the Z10e. It can sound better. It probably still sounds better than the A90D.
- HEk series is a good way to scratch the hifiman itch without committing to a system around Sus.
- X9000 makes most people build around it and not in parallel to it.
- Think of your total budget and not a per component budget. Makes recommendations and matching much easier. You might pick different components even if the per component sum adds up to the total.
- If I were you - I’d zero in on headphones I like, I’d get a relatively cheaper system then what you think you’d end up spending, and I’d move my way up as I figure better what I want. Knowing the pros and cons of each move and familiarizing yourself with your gear and preferences. You can still do this quite quickly in case you feel you have to.
9 Likes
Just FWIW, and I know this is something I personally struggle getting my head around, often times the pickier sources end up with the highest SQ when well matched. Just something to keep in mind if you decide to target specific cans.
20k is a ton of money for sources. I wouldnt relay recommend spending more than half of that on the first dive in so you can even figure out what you like.
I mean, A90D may have more bass, but sus really takes some pretty high level source gear to be worth while over other options IMO. Having not heard sus on either im guessing I would take the softer presentation of Z10E since it is such a significant step up basicaly everywhere else. Just FWIW, Once you start talking about truly TOTL cans like Sus, 1266, D8kp, mysphere, etc, I would kind of ignore stuff like topping as its issues will become quite a bit more magnified (d8kp on a90 is etch city for example even though I dont think its a generaly etchy can)
Also, mind if I ask why no 1266? It seems like the best option given what youve said about your prefrences.
are these impressions on a90d specifically?
So, these options you are presenting are pretty all over the place tbh. I think both rad-0 (only get the new wood one since they are way lighter) and d8kp would be fairly safe bets. With d8kp it can get fairly spicy in the trebble on a spicy amp like A90D though. If you want to take a little bit more of a wild shot, spring 3 → ferrum stack → OG uoptia would actually probably be up your alley from what i can tell. This would also give you a somewhat balanced chain to be able to start trying more stuff on (I may go a different dac as the spring into ferrum will be missing a fair bit of texture, but I havent tried a bunch on that amp so i cant say for sure). Mysphere may work, but just tbh, I am still unsure how I feel about that can and its dumb picky source wise (seemingly more so than og utopia which is already dumb picky) but we will see how my opinions change once mine arrives tomorrow.
Honestly, a stunning “one and done” chain is Z10E → X9K (not sure on dac here, but lots seem to love rockna) and it has good impact and insane bass control, but I just dont know if it will be enough for you since your descriptions make you out to be a fair bass head.
3 Likes
damn fine post. I think my only comment here is that if you havent experience kinda “entry level hifi” (say 1500-3k components), it probably makes sense to take a half step chain wise to explore different cans. I wouldn’t really start goin $$$$ into sources until you have just a couple of cans you want to prioritize though.
Also, no idea where you are from @CT007 but if you are in socal im more than happy to show you around the listening options and give you demos of what I have. I’m sure you can find others willing to help with the local scene if you are in a fairly major population hub.
6 Likes
4 Likes
Agreed. This is just the best amp I have available for testing future phones on at the moment, without snagging one of these big, shiny TOTL amps first. Might be decent for testing, still. Hopefully. If I could grab that Z10E as a solid option for BOTH planar/dynamic and Stax, that would be awesome… Though I suspect there are better amps on both sides to be had for a little bit more, in which case I could simply sell the Z10E to buy later.
I heard 1266 at the same store I heard HE66S and LCD-3, and didn’t like it as much. Though, it was through a different system. I don’t think I vibe with it much, either.
HE6seV2 = A90D / Gungnir MB+Soloist 3XP (stock opamps)
XS = A90D / Gungnir MB+Soloist 3XP (stock opamps)
HD800S = A90D (sounds pretty similar with MLP and EF400)
LCD-3/4 = CMA 15 / EF400 / MLP
LCD-GX = A90D / Gungnir MB+Soloist 3XP (stock opamps)
109 Pro = A90D / EF400 / MLP
HD600 = Xonar STX / Modi 2 MB / Magni 2
! Gotta start somewhere, huh? 
Really seems like a strong base for both dynamic/planar and estats!!! Have you heard Z10E with 007 and L700, by chance, too…?
Z10E > BHSE? :o
Appreciate the offer! 
In the Twin Cities, sadly, but I can fly or bus or something 
Get some vacation booked, and bring my A90D and some marshmallows over, have a Stax party!
1 Like
If only you knew someone who might be selling his soon…
3 Likes
I love these for sale posts, “I’m just putting this out there to gauge interest.” Like, what… So it’s NOT for sale.
1 Like
Honestly, I realy would try and get something in the like 1500-2500 range to do this testing on. The jump to an amp like that from A90D will be pretty substantial for lots of these cans.
If you are legit considering it shoot me a PM and Ill hook you up with a dealer that tends to have good deals on LTA stuff.
Honestly, on the estat side, you basicaly need to spend double to beat Z10E IME. That said, it does perform a bit below its price for dynamics.
Id give 1266 another chance. They are hyper fit dependent and it can take ages to figure out what fit you like (same with mysphere btw). I think it took me around a week and a half to decide on a specific fit when i had them in house.
TYVM for the info. TBH id sugest that a lot of the trebble issues you were having is down to the amp just as much as the can. While XS and 6SEV2 arent hyper refined in the trebble, if these are what gave you issues, I wouldnt worry a ton about most TOTL gear.
I have not unfortunately. I do actualy really like L700 though. May be worth a try.
By a massively significant margin. Just TBH, if we assume that Z10E is what a 6.5k amp should sound like, BHSE is worth like 3k max if it was in the dynamic world. BHSE is great at fixing the tonal issues of 009 and 009S but thats about it. I would also avoid the eksonic mini-T2 in favor of Z10e as I just think its a full tier or two better for similar pricing.
If you can make it, canjam socal is a fantastic experience. Will have a chance to try all sorts of stuff and while its not great at getting a full review of sound, I find it super useful for just narrowing down my immediate interest in stuff.
nah. its more of a “I know i need to sell this, but hot damn do I not want to. But since I know I need to ima offer it to people I like at least and when it doesnt sell that means I have justification for keeping it even though I know I need to sell it”
3 Likes
Inb4 it blows my mind and I say fuck dacs and sus and I order shang sr just for you to sell Z10E out from under me and I have no system for 3 months while I wait for an amp to arrive.
2 Likes
I’m this close to banning interest checks for that reason. Either sell or don’t, otherwise it’s just confusing and frustrating for everyone. I understand having interest checks for communities where things like group buys exist or custom products that need to be made, but I think they’re largely unneeded for average buy sell stuff
7 Likes