I’m beginning to feel that adding anything to the signal chain necessarily takes away something.
I just got a Mass Kobo 433 amp, and a tiny bit of resolution seems lost when directly compared to the headphone output on my Weiss 501-Mk2 DAC (would never have noticed if I had not compared directly).
It’s like a very slight reverb-effect added to the sound, which takes away a bit of the crispness from it, and adds a bit of haze. And the 433 is not a cheap amp, and it’s from a reputed manufacturer. Certainly, the 433 also adds some desirable qualities to the sound: making it noticeably punchier in the bass, for example.
But I’m not sure the loss is possible to avoid: I had noticed the same thing back when I had a Burson Soloist. I am using high-end XLR interconnects, so that’s not the bottleneck here.
Have you ever used a headphone amp that retains 100% of the resolution and definition of the source? I understand it’s impossible to directly compare unless the source itself has a headphone output. But many DACs (such as my Weiss, the Chord Dave, many others) do have this.
Well the DAC’s using something to drive the headphone out, so there’s an amp there too, it’s just in the same box, and probably less complicated.
Everything adds, or perhaps subtracts something.
There are benefits to having lower powered amplifiers, power supply noise is basically a function of how much power you draw. There is a benefit to being in the same box, less opportunity for RF interference, less paths to ground…
But there are benefits to power and complexity too.
The best example I can give of why less isn’t necessarily better is passive pre amps, they seem like a great idea on paper, but in practice a good active pre is gold.
In the end it’s about the sum of the parts.
The problem with the term transparent is it implies you can know what no circuit sounds like and you simply can’t. Neutral has similar connotations and problems in definition.
I edited my post to remove the word “transparent”.
Yes, I understand that my Weiss must have a basic headphone amp built-in. My point is that if the built-in amp is revealing details that the Mass Kobo is not, those details are clearly being generated by the DAC, but the Mass Kobo is “losing” them.
Perhaps there are even more details that both the Mass Kobo and the built-in amp are losing (and therefore I have never heard), but that’s besides the point, the point being that the MK is losing more details than the built-in amp.
Maybe, but detail is a perception, boosting treble or compressing it in particular can give the impression of “false” detail, it’s more obvious in headphones, where headphones like the 1266 can sound more “detailed” than say a Susvara on first blush, but if you listen to both for an extended time you start to realize that there isn’t inherently more detail from the 1266.
Almost any amp with a half decent noise floor will technically give you more detail than you can perceive, the question then becomes why do some seem to convey that detail better, what are you actually hearing/perceiving?
Short version I don’t know, but I don’t doubt there are headphone amps that will present better in what ever category you want to value, than the amp on the Weis itself.
I haven’t heard the Mass Kobo or the Weis internal amp so I can’t really comment, many times over the last 40 years of listening to hifi, I’ve listened to gear that surprises me with “I’ve never heard that before” moments on tracks I’ve heard hundreds or in some case probably thousands of times.
I do think detail is a very tricky metric, it’s hard to isolate, sometimes as I mentioned with the 1266 more detail forward isn’t more detailed, the amps that have impressed me over the years convey detail without emphasizing it.
FWIW I grew up in the old school you can never get better than your source school of thought. It took me years to really appreciate what an active pre amp could do, and it forced me to reevaluate the whole do least damage philosophy.
Years ago I was hoping for a one-box solution w/ DAC, phono stage and headphone amp, and bought a Vinnie Rossi LIO to this effect. However, in my experience, it’s actually pretty rare for DACs to have really good headphone amps – in the meaning that is compatible with a wide range of headphones. Sure, there will be integrated headphone amps that can drive some easier headphones, but I think even some really big name (and costly) DACs like the Chords, dCS, etc., are not putting a ton of effort into their headphone amplification.
In cases like that, esp if you are using a headphone that requires drive, there’s no option except for adding components.
Another point which probably can sound like blasphemy, but for me, it’s okay to lose a bit of resolution to gain musicality, tonality, and fun. It’s a compromise which I have decided to go down on and don’t regret it one bit…
I should have mentioned this, but the Mass Kobo vs Weiss built-in amp comparison used the same set of headphones (Focal Utopias).
Your thoughts on the nature of detail are very interesting, thanks. In this case, I’m not even sure “detail” is the right word, to describe what exactly it is that I’m hearing more of with the built-in amp, and less with the 433. When I switch to the 433 from the Weiss output, I just notice a punchier and slightly warmer sound overall. However when I switch back to the Weiss from the 433, it’s like fog was lifted from the sound: everything is crisper and minute nuances of the recording “sparkle”.
I completely agree with both points you make. It just happens that my only headphones (Focal Utopias) are so easy to drive that amps built into DACs do just fine with them, AND the amp built into the Weiss happens to sound extremely musical (magical, even) to my ears. Hence the slight remorse over getting the Mass Kobo.
That’s more likely a choice. I just don’t have the experience with the Mass Kobo to know how it’s slanted, I know @orrman loves his, but I also know he values tonal weight more than I do.
I’m big into dynamics in reproduction, but a lot of people value weight in the same way and it’s a bit of a trade off. There are less tradeoffs in the high end, but at some point a designer has to make choices.
The Utopia is a very dynamic headphone to the point that I feel it needs a bit of it’s edge taken off, and my favorite amp for it is either the DNA Stratus/Stellaris (If you have the money) or EC Studio T (if you can find one and have the money), they don’t overly soften it, but take the edge off it and really open up it’s stage. It’s the only focal headphone I like on tubes,
I already have a tube amp for the Utopia that I like a lot: the LTA Ultralinear+. I considered the Stellaris when buying the LTA, but the wait-time was more than a year.
I think the 433 has great tonal weight, and I do value that. I don’t feel like I need an edge taken off, but then, my Utopia is the Utopia 2022 (“Nutopia”).
It’s just that I also value air and sparkly details, which the 433 seems to have less of. Maybe Mass Kobo’s more expensive amps don’t have to make that compromise, but then, they are also very overpowered for the Utopia.
Yeah that’s the rub with the DNA amps, I waited 5 months for my Stratus when they weren’t quite as popular and by the time I got it I wished I’d ordered the Stellaris.
It’s worth it FWIW.
I have a Studio T I use with my Utopia, and MySphere depending on the week, but I was ready to order a Stellaris, when the Studio T turned up used locally the week I sold the Stratus.
Having spent a lot of time with the Weiss I can say that I enjoyed it as a DAC a lot. It wasn’t for the chain I ultimately built but it’s amp when I used it at the time struggled. It was because the two HPs I happened to have at the time were both 300 ohm and a bit more demanding so I can’t speak to that.
Funny enough I’m also now the content new owner of a LIO which is about as good all in one as I’ve come across, it’s not a high end DAC, it’s not a high end amp, but it work very well as an all in one which usually suffer from either being DAC centric or amp centric and as such are hard to place depending on which one prefers more.
Welcome @Atriya interesting conversation overnight. My first thought was "someone was a little high when writing the post as it’s one of those deep into the rabbit hole thoughts.
I think most of the “reasoning” has been discussed at valid but what I’ve missed in reading through the thread is the very nature of listening to begin with. I think there’s an association as @Polygonhell stated of detail that can be synthetic and exhausting frankly when done wrong and we know it when we hear it for an extended period of time or specifically in headphones that wow at first and then you’re relived when you take them off.
I’m not a HP guy so most of my deep or critical listening is done via 2-Ch. In a way, it’s ALL detail, we just use different words to describe that type of detail. Organics for example is a type of detail that very clearly speaks to us and we just know it when we hear it. Texture is another type of detail that we again know it when we hear it.
So just focusing on the “sparkle” you hear, it’s clearly there but you’ll never know whether it’s there because of the DAC or because of the amp. The real gauge is what does the entirety of the music sound like and you’ve clearly done that and can hear pros and cons.
Which in the end is the entirety of the hobby, which chain can you put together that has the most pros with the lest cons that are MEANINGFUL to you and the way yo listen to your music. It’s all various levels of compromise and if you’re unwilling to compromise then you’re spending well over six figures to get to a point when you’re happy with the compromises you’ve ultimately made.
I think your personal selections and how you describe what you’re looking for are very telling and fit together logically as well (not to take for granted as some people say they want one thing but their gear choice tells a different story).
The 2022 Utopia is definitely warmer leaning than the OG Utopia. Pairing it with the UL+ out of all the LTA amps actually makes sense to get you a little bit back the dryness and top end sparkle that the 2022 tuning could be lacking for some ears (I’d consider the Z10e in that realm too out of all the LTAs, the rest less so).
The 433 is the warmest out of all the Mass Kobos and I can definitely see how when paired with the 22 Utopia that could be too much for one’s preferences, it would be for me as well. I’ve had the 433 pair with the OG and that is a very good synergistic pairing because of the different HP tuning. Maybe try and get your hands on an OG Utopia to try out, it won’t be far off from your '22 but might get you to the sweet spot you’re looking for with 433 and then perhaps some tube rolling in UL+ will keep you satisfied on both amps. Sticking to the manufacturers here - OG Utopia with MK 433 and the LTA MZ3 would be my personal choice if I started picking and choosing from scratch.
The Weiss definitely leans more into the perceived and forward detail you seem to miss, so it’s less about the additional component that’s the problem and more about the specific components in play (as Polygon explained). 433 is indeed warmer leaning, and your HP it’ll go ever warmer and then the frequencies that help us think there’s more detail get less weight in your chain.
Another side note about amplification power - I wouldn’t stress too much about it, especially not with Utopia but only a select few HPs actually need gobs of power. That said, I wouldn’t cross out an amp because it’s more powerful, the higher end Kobos (394ii and 465) are definitely more powerful than the 433 but they are so much better than it because of their technical performance and masterful tuning imo, not because of power.
Great discussion @Atriya and welcome to the community!
@dB_Cooper and @orrman: Thanks for your very insightful thoughts and for welcoming me here.
@dB_Cooper: I may not have been high, but definitely deep into the rabbit hole!
@orrman: Yes, I chose the UL+ specifically because LTA claimed it was the most “detailed” of all their amps. But, just like the 433, I found the UL+ to also not have the uncanny and magical clarity that I get from the Weiss headphone output, which so often feels like it has found the “truth” in the recording (to my ears, at least). And this is even with my best tubes, and I have done a lot of tube rolling. With tubes I don’t like, it sounds downright muddy.
That said, the UL+ is obviously a tube amp and does so many other things for the sound that I like, that I don’t mind losing a bit of resolution (if that is even what is actually happening). With a solid-state amp, I am less willing to make that compromise.
In that case - perhaps look at a CFA3 as an alternative to 433 in solid state and not too far in cost. Zahl HM1 can also fit but much more expensive. Mass Kobo 394ii if you can find one, that’s discontinued until a replacement will be introduced probably later this year or early next.
I think you might like the Woo WA33 as a good middle ground between solid state and tubes, their used pricing are quite tempting for the performance you get.
Maybe the Nimbus? Never heard it but some here might be able to say if that’s a better fit.
Also just a thought but maybe a second pair of headphones can get you everything you need without switching systems
I will say that when I popped the hood on the Weiss, the HP amp is basically married to their analog output of their DAC which is in itself a separated enclosed metal box within the DAC so they’re going out of their way to give you a direct HP output.
Thanks for the recommendations! I considered the WA33 when I bought the UL+, but I felt like I’d be missing out by not getting the WA33 EE, and that was too expensive.
Just thinking aloud what a second pair of headphones might be. Mass Kobo says the 433 “has enough power to drive ordinary dynamic headphones”, which reduces options.
The 433 can work with a lot of options, I wouldn’t go researching and thinking it will limit you much at all. It’s more about understanding your preferences and what your Weiss/433 sounds like and matching everything together. Ask yourself “what would be the best compliment sound to my Utopia and what am I missing” and with that in mind go do some research on different headphones options (also helpful to figure out a budget and if it’s used or new). We can definitely help with more recommendations here once you have those directions to narrow down the search.
I would definitely start with finding a way to listen to a Utopia OG if I were you.
You’re very much in a price tier where you want to find a way to listen to options.
It’s often difficult to describe what you like, or what you value in reproduction, preferring A to B is often a good place to start.
I’ve bemoaned before the difficulties of even hearing some of the more esoteric options.
A lot of us have cycled through gear by buying and selling (My WA33 is sitting in it’s box on my living room floor because I haven’t gotten to listing it), but it’s a lot of effort, and you can end up with a lot of money tied up in gear.
Finding local enthusiasts who’ll let you listen is also good, though not always easy.
I think Orman’s suggestions are all solid, the thing to be careful of with the Utopia is very much the noise floor, it’s so sensitive not every amp will be quiet enough to be completely silent with it.
I also think that it is not just if the detail is there but how it is presented. Some of my old gear has to s of detail, it is very up front and on the glass per say. I learned my gear now has more detail but at first listen it may not be there so readily for your ear. The details arent right up front, but they are placed more correctly and that means it may be way back and hard to hear. But they usually also gain much more nuance and it gives the overall sound more depth.
Edit: I posted this before i saw the other posts. But I agree an OG Utopia can be the trick and they can be found in the mid $1-2k range. I will also say a cable can do a lot. I sm not sure what the Nutopia pairs nest with but imho an OG isnt complete without a Danacable. The dana adds a bit of girth, warmth, and naturalness to the OG so i dont know if that would be best for a Nu.
My first thought was "someone was a little high when writing the post as it’s one of those deep into the rabbit hole thoughts.