Mojo Audio thread, Mystique / Deja Vu / Illuminati

Sovrce Gear
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Everything was good this morning after another 75 hours of burn in (his estimation). Said it was working flawlessly and sounds great. It’s shipping back to me today.

And for anyone interested, before my Y broke, Ben shared the following information about his upcoming offerings, after he cryptically mentioned their looming Z DAC and I asked about it. I asked if it was going to be the PCM63-based DAC he mentioned on his site a few years ago and then also asked if he’d ever considered doing a fully discrete R2R implementation:

I’ve actually been working with Vishay to build me a single-wafer 20-bit resistor ladder that could be used to make a proper discrete DAC.

Not like the BS those Chi-Fi companies are making with .01% resistors and a lot of FPGA software compensation.

FYI, a true laser matched 20-bit R-2R resistor ladder needs to be matched something like .000005% and can only be done on one “wafer” of silicone.

So far they’re not willing to even attempt it…but that’s what Lundahl said about the nano crystal core chokes for a few years before I convinced them to manufacture them for us.

The Mystique Z will be built around a very close cousin of the 20-bit PCM63…the 18-bit PCM58 which some consider to be even better.

It’s going to have the same chassis as the Mystique Y, three inputs (USB, coaxial, and optical), and several power supply upgrades.

The Burr-Brown PCM58 is about 4X the size and sounds significantly better than the Analog Devices AD1862 DAC chips we’ve been using.

I’ve been stashing them away for years.

We’re actually looking at a next gen EVO built around the PCM63 in 2026 or 2027. This next gen EVO will be built in the EVO 2021 chassis but optional have dual mono LCLC power supplies and an optional remote controlled volume attenuator.

I don’t look forward to lifting our next gen EVO :^P

I’m definitely intrigued. I always though the PCM63 was the pinnacle of vintage multibit DACs, but that doesn’t sound to necessarily be the case after all. It’ll be interesting to hear impressions of this PCM58 DAC when it releases.

Oh, and the old V2 SE is listed on his site for $1000 for anyone interested.

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I think there are opinions and preferences between those two, but if i had to give my untrained ears a pick i would do 63. I think i remember reading they had a but tighter specs on some binnings.

I would guess the 63s are very hard to get in good numbers so he is stashing that for the best of his best design. The 58 may be slightly easier to get and a good step up and a good enough for the next in line while the tippy top waits a few years. Just guesses, it also builds in a few years of betterer something in the product line.

I do want to know how it compares to the AD chip in his design. Ben 100% puts heavy consideration into the power side of things, but will the PCMs change the Mojo sound sig substantially enough that it is now not that fun, big bottomed, coloration? I guess time will tell.

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I’m shocked that it apparently sounds so much better than the AD1862 chips

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The main difference is probably that the PCM63 is a 20-bit chip while the PCM58 is an 18-bit chip. Also, the PCM63 is better known and was probably available in more CD players and DACs. However, if you look below, you will see that the PCM58 offers the potential for adjustment of the four MSBs to further improve the PCM58P’s specifications. Below is a little of what BB/TI has to say about them, including that both offer ultra-low distortion over a very wide frequency range.

The PCM58P is a complete, precision 18-bit digital to-analog converter with ultra-low distortion over a very wide frequency range. The latched serial input data format of the PCM58P is totally based on the widely successful 16-bit PCM56P format (with the addition of two more data bits). The PCM58P features a very low noise and fast settling current output. The PCM58P comes in a 28-pin plastic DIP package. A provision is made for external adjustment of the four MSBs to further improve the PCM58P’s specifications, if desired. Applications include very low distortion frequency synthesis and high-end consumer and professional digital audio applications.

The PCM63P is a precision 20-bit digital-to-analog converter with ultra-low distortion (–96dB max with a full scale output; PCM63P-K). Incorporated into the PCM63P is a unique Colinear dual-DAC per channel architecture that eliminates unwanted glitches and other nonlinearities around bipolar zero. The PCM63P also features a very low noise (116dB max SNR; A-weighted method) and fast settling current output (200ns typ, 2mA step) which is capable of 16-times oversampling rates. Applications include very low distortion frequency
synthesis and high-end consumer and professional digital audio applications.

Benjamin is over a year away from offering a Z DAC with PCM58 (or 63) chips, and a lot can happen in that time. BTW, I sold my Z-chip EVO Pro and am happily listening to the X SE with Z-chips + NC chokes.

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Out of curiosity what input are you using into the X?

Ben is a curious guy to deal with as when talking to him you realize that he’s ALWAYS wearing his salesman hat. I don’t for once think he’s blowing smoke up anyone but not everything he states with confidence is what I’ve found to be the case.Thankfully I’ve been fortunate enough to hear the bulk of his DAC offerings and they’re all good and they’ve all been a solid progression forward but I’m convinced that my preference for the EVO Pro with the AM choke upgrade over the X SE with NC chockes has to be in the dramatic difference in their power supply as they’re pretty much identical in HW other than that.

That said is why I’m very curious about his Z DAC offering whenever it gets here because it’s going to be based on the EVO Pro chassis and presumably a NC based but similar design PS.

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This. :point_up_2:

I really enjoy talking to Ben, but I’ve learned that hyperbole is part of his natural way of speaking. He is truly enthusiastic about what he does, but his brain doesn’t seem to be able to distinguish between incremental differences and huge differences.

I also think that at this level, subjectivity comes into play. I hope Ben offers the DAC models as different flavors of great sound instead of trying to categorize them as good, better and best.

I’m with @mitch and I’m very happy with the sound of my X SE with Z-chips + NC chokes. I don’t know if I want a different flavor.

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And that’s the difficulty as he’s not running the typical industry Godd, Better, Best, model, he’s just making the best DAC he feels he can make and IMO price point is a secondary target for him.

For example with the Y, he said he has a lot of his customers saying that USB is the overwhelming input they use, so his thinking was, let me make a cheaper DAC by cutting out the other digital inputs, but he’s not making a cheaper DAC just a DAC within the new target constraint.

Precisely as this is what ultimately determines preference in the end.

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My Y has been running since it arrived back to me on Wednesday at 9:15am (seriously must’ve cached in all my favors with the universe to get it delivered so early). This time, though, I brought it into my office and let it warm up with my space heater running for about 3.5 hours before plugging it in. I’ve heard that using electronics from freezing cold temps can potentially cause problems. I don’t know if that’s true, but I figured it hurt nothing to wait a few more hours.

It’s all good still, sounds absolutely incredible, and I’m very much looking forward to listening tonight with a bunch of German bier.

Anyway, I struck up the conversation with Ben again, asking him about the PCM58. Here is the response chain.

Me

And to go back to the email about the Z DAC and PCM58, that’s very intriguing. I’m shocked that you think the PCM58 sounds that much better than the AD1862, and even the PCM63 possibly. What would you say it is about it that makes it so good?

Regarding this line from that email:

FYI, a true laser matched 20-bit R-2R resistor ladder needs to be matched something like .000005% and can only be done on one “wafer” of silicone.

That’s the reason that, ultimately, Burr-Brown discontinued the PCM63, isn’t it? I remember reading that yields were incredibly low on the chip due to all of the errors that could possibly happen and any single error making a chip useless. It’s also my understanding that no company would ever take on production of that chip again due to the extreme expense.

Ben

The PCM series of DAC chips are literally 4X the size of the AD1862…they didn’t do that just for show.

The PCM58 has fine tune distortion and linearity adjustments for the 4 most significant bits.

The PCM63 has fine tune distortion and linearity adjustments for the 2 most significant bits.

The AD1865 and AD1862 only have a fine tune distortion and linearity adjustment for the most significant bit and it is adjusted by an audible sound vs an actual distortion analyzer.

One of the major reasons we’ve not released a PCM based DAC sooner was that we had to purchase a very expensive distortion analyzer and get some additional training before we could do the fine tune adjustments on those DAC chips.

Back in the day, nearly all the major high-end DAC manufacturers went with the PCM series simply because they sounded better.

That’s why there are fewer of them available…that’s why they are significantly more expensive…that’s why they are better known.

Note that your DAC has the AD1865 18-bit stereo chip vs the AD1862 20-bit mono chips which sound notably better.

And the reason the AD1862N-Z chips sounded better was the use of better materials and better tolerances in the same circuit.

Better materials and better tolerances are part of why the PCM series are so much larger and why they sound a little bit better than the AD series.

Me

Those design differences in the various chips are quite interesting. Do you know why the 58 has more distortion and linearity adjustments than the 63? Was the 58 the original top-of-the-line chip before the 63? Or does the 63 offer other features that don’t require as much distortion and linearity adjustment?

Ben

The 58 was their top-of-the-line chip before the 63.

Since they both use the identical form factor I can only assume that they didn’t have the space to fit the additional adjustments when they went from 18-bit to 20-bit.

That and very few companies used those adjustments.

We’re the only company I know of that uses the adjustments in the AD1865 and AD1862.

The adjustment circuit and method of adjustment are shown quite clearly in the data sheets for all of those DAC chips but they require about $15 worth of parts per adjustment and require a qualified electronics tech to adjust them.

My guess is that most companies don’t want to have to mess with them since they are optional.

Rather than “tuning” each chip companies would put in 2-4 chips in parallel which would statistically optimize linearity and minimize distortion in specific frequencies without requiring electronics techs to fine tune the adjustments on each DAC board.

And I’m not talking about cheap DACs…I’m talking about high-end companies like Krell, Threshold, and Levison.

It was very informative. I had no idea about the PCM58 being the original TOTL BB chip. I always assumed the PCM63 came first, and the 58 was a stripped down version of it.

It’ll be quite cool to see what he does with these and hear how they sound. I’m definitely intrigued and excited about them!

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I’m reading levels as high as 85.6 dB, and I still want to turn it up louder. I know this is an attribute of Ben’s DACs, from multiple people saying similar things on multiple forums. What’s the deal? Why does it sound so “quiet” when it absolutely is not?

Also, after approximately 100 hours of burn in, this does sound incredible, but it’s not quite the jump I expected. My 2.0 system also weirdly sounds better outside the room.

In the sweet spot, it’s incredibly immersive and I’m hearing things never heard before, mostly layered vocals and subtle textures on synths. However, bass is not impactful and also kind of blurs into the background. But outside the listening room, elsewhere in the house, bass hits fucking HARD and I hear even more texture and nuance. It’s so weird.

My wife kept saying how crisp and clear everything sounds, and it truly is so crisp and clear. I have also never tapped my foot along so much. Even in songs where it’s not appropriate, this internal metronome takes over and I find the beat. Maybe it’s the drummer in me. Ben’s philosophy around timing is spot on. Everything is so fucking snappy! There’s this natural groove I’ve never experienced before.

The Cornwalls are very fast speakers and the Y is showing it. “March of the Pigs” by NIN is one of the fastest songs ever recorded (269bpm) and my system has never struggled, but tonight, it sounded so effortless. The microdetail on Adrian Belew’s riffing gave goosebumps. For the first time with these speakers, I was able to hear the distinct chugging of his guitar in the second verse, something I’ve not heard outside of the 5.1 surround mix of the album. It’s a benchmark test I use because the mixing of the song places that guitar directly behind Trent’s voice in stereo. On every iteration of this 2.0 system, his voice just overpowers the guitar, and it kind of sounds like overdriven mush behind him, but the Y separates so well, I can hear the nuance of Belew’s playing.

It’s not a night and day change from my modified GDA-600 after all, but these little things, the incredible, effortless presentation that makes every layer distinct and followable, no matter how chaotic or intense a song may get is just astounding. The little things are sometimes the big things and I am so pleased. I’ve been moved to tears numerous times tonight and I have no choice but to listen to my whole catalog multiple times again for the first time becuse of how much information I may have never heard before.

I ist wish I could turn it louder without doing damage, becauae it really does sound so, so good.

EDIT: the sound stage is unreal. It’s so deep and immersive. The Downward Spiral definitive edition sounds like it’s 5.1.

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I’m not a 2 channel or expert but i would guess the whole room is pressurizing and acting like a giant bass box. Its a new dac you may need to adjust things again.

Outside of some Ben silliness, there is one thing I ABSOLUTELY HATE about the Mojo dacs. The things they do well, they do sooooo well and are so capturing to music enjoyment (at least personally) that is harder to appreciate other DACs. I couldnt get into the lampi dacs ive had despite their universal praise as the mojos just had the things i liked in such bigger and better doses. They really immerse me and some of the physicalities remind me of live performances. I personally dont think it has a huge stage but its big enough and its wrap around pairs so well with the focal utopias.

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When I upgraded my EVO Pro to all AM chokes it took well over 300 hours for them to really show what they could do. They were thin beforehand.

Also a revelation to me that I’d never considered about new gear in the 2-CH world.

Speaker placement is an exercise that’s half art and half science. The science comes in the physical aspect where moving the speakers has an impact in the sound. The art comes from the fact that you’re moving the speakers to suit your taste and getting the most of your preferred flavor in doing so.

Placement of the speakers is always a compromise as chasing stage width may come at the expense of center image as an example. So you’re compromising at a point to achieve what sounds best to you.

What upgrading gear ultimately does is allow your to compromise less. Meaning you can push the speakers out a little wider, or a little farther or a little less toe or whatever movement you’re chasing to get you maximizing your taste where before at that point you would have been sacrificing one trait for another. It’s an interesting revelation when you come across it.

I remember being floored the first time I listened to the Amber 3, the stage size, the expansiveness of it, it literally was disorienting at first but it was also no real, it felt a bit exaggerated.

The Mojo offerings at every level I’ve tried are simply engaging and enveloping.

So often you hear people talk about how the musicians are right there in front of you in your room. The simplest way I can describe the intangible effect my EVO Pro has is that it brings you to the space where the musicians are playing instead of bringing the musicians into the room that you’re sitting in.

For a HP rig, I’d snap one of the bargain basement X-SE that show up on USAM in a heartbeat.

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I listened for another 6 hours yesterday, sober, and was able to determine a somewhat significant channel imbalance that I didn’t hear on Friday because, when I was sober(er), my wife and I were next to each other on the couch, so everything sounded right-heavy to me, since I was closer to that speaker. By the time she went to bed and I moved to the sweet spot, I was too far gone to notice.

Yesterday, it was clear that the system was noticeably louder from the left speaker, so I spent far longer than I’d care to admit adjusting that and once I got it right, things just kind of clicked. Impact increased dramatically, and the 3D/immersive qualities of the DAC went to the next level.

I’ve had it playing music nonstop since, so hopefully it sounds even better this coming weekend.

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Once again, tube rolling had had an astounding effect on the sound. I swapped out the GF treasure globes in my Canary M90 for the Linlai Global E-6SN7s, and the Sophia 12AX7 for a long plate Gold Lion, and this system sounds so punchy and alive it’s unreal.

The AD1862 and AD1865 LOVE those Linlai tubes. It was the same when I had the MDHT Atlantis. There is an undeniable synergy and the SD chips get SO punchy. And the Gold Lion long plate 12AX7 has incredible synergy. Clarity is insane.

EDIT: OMG this is so sparkly. My wife is playing songs from the Wicked movie and the chimes are giving me goosebumps. This is fucking amazing.

And this tube swap has definitely helped with it sounding quiet. We’re averaging 76dB and it sounds more like 80. This is the right combo for SURE.

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So like, do you like the DAC or not?

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@dB_Cooper - When I was doing my Six DAC Comparison, everything was running from my Sig Rendu SE Deluxe (opt) into a Singxer SU-6 DDC and then out via S/PDIF or AES/EBU. After I thinned the herd to focus on the X SE NCZ, I switched to USB directly out of the Sig Rendu using a Network Acoustics Muon USB cable. If I were asked, I might say the USB is preferred and seems to display just a tiny bit more body and fluidity but I seriously doubt I could reliably detect a difference in blind testing. I will keep the SU-6 out of my system for now, since I should be receiving a Y DAC from Benjamin shortly.
I was worried that I would miss the EVO Pro but my more extensive listening comparison noted the X SE provided improvement in bass definition as well as slightly better articulation of musicians/vocalists, while still providing the naturally organic presentation that Mojo DACs are known for so, I am fully ok with my choice. OTOH, I certainly could have lived happily with the EVO Pro, which had this relaxing quality to it - sort of like a vinyl vs. digital sort of thing.

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You’re not the first to say that they preferred the USB, @NickMimi has said the same. Certainly variables given their design and then you throw in cables and the different DDC and you’re never stepping into the same river twice.

To be honest I’d probably not be able to pick the two DACs appart in a system that wasn’t mine since they are more similar than they are different.

For me the biggest difference was they way they presented the sound stage whereas the X SE NCZ was still wider but flatter and my Evo Pro AM would wrap around my sitting position.

In a 2-CH that was my preference, in HP I would have welcomed the X SE NCZ more. What was pretty clear is that the DAC @Souldriver let me try first was very lacking when compared to the same DAC with the NCZ changes made to it. NC and the Z does go a long way. Funny enough is precisely why I didn’t want to send the DAC back to Ben, I just like the chain the way it is and I didn’t want to mess with it.

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I did not note the same sound staging differences you did between the X SE and EVO Pro. Fortunately, my EVO Pro had both AM chokes and Z-chips and my X SE has NC chokes and Z-chips, so the comparison was pretty much best against best, of each model. I don’t purposely listen for staging as much as for tone and dynamics, and it seems so much of the sound stage presentation is dependent on speaker placement, listening location, and room acoustics, that it is not surprising different listeners can hear things differently in different rooms. I did notice what seemed to be more precise performer placements with the X SE, although the EVO Pro could have had a broader overall envelope of sound.

I am still ok with my choice of the X SE NCZ, which pushed the sound of my system toward the direction of improved overall resolution. I have also found that minor adjustments in the sound are possible by playing with cables. I did notice that the first X SE I had here (std model with AM chokes and no Z-chips) did not have quite the appeal of the NCZ model I have now, or the EVO Pro AM Z.

I am looking forward to hearing Benjamin’s PCM 58 DAC, but that will probably not be out until sometime in 2026. In the meantime, I believe he plans to begin incorporating further power supply upgrades in his AD1862 DACs prior to the release of the DAC with PCM 58 chips. I am happy with the overall sound and balance of my system currently, since no one component seems to be overshadowed by the others and each contributes (mostly) equally to the whole.

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I have had Benjamin’s Mystique Y AM here for a few weeks and trying to find time to finish a write-up but for sure it will be good. An amazing value, IMO.
@Souldriver said it well,

I am trying to decide where can I go from here. My X SE NCZ does what I need so well that I hesitate to buy/try DACs even at twice the price. There are a few I would like to hear but I am trying not to buy a boat anchor. The Tambaqui was an easy try because it was so easy to resell at little to no loss. Would still like to hear a totaldac d1 unity and one or two others. Also, the Grimm MU2 has received great reviews and I would like to hear what all the fuss is about.

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How do you like the Y vs the X?

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I am just about done with my write-up. The Mystique Y DAC sounds very good. I have the version with amorphous core chokes (Y AM). However, to my ears, there are tangible sonic reasons the X SE (mine is the NCZ version) is worth twice what the Y DAC costs. There are generally no free lunches. The good news is that the Y DAC provides 80+% of the X SE for around half the price, which should be a really good deal in anyone’s book, IMO of course.

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