Mojo Audio thread, Mystique / Deja Vu / Illuminati

[kerls]

Very intriguing! I wonder how much of a step-up that entry-level one would be over the Mystique V2 SE. Sucks it’s USB-only, though. I wonder if he would do a custom version with AES or coaxial…

I also wonder if his PCM63 DAC is ever going to see the light of day. I prefer AD1862/1865-based DACs, but the PCM63 is still incredible and I truly believe if anyone can get the most out of it, it’s Ben. My understanding, based on reading the long thread about modifying the Adcom GDA600, getting the PCM63 to operate as NOS DAC is tedious and finicky. Or maybe it was just for getting NOS in the existing GDA600 circuit. Regardless, a Mojo PCM63 DAC would likely be one of its best implementations ever.

[Souldriver]

Havent heard much about his supposed new line in a long while.

[dB_Cooper]

It’s the 80% of customers using USB line that got me. A lot of people must be very content with plugging their laptop or tablet right into a USB input of a DAC and calling it a day. I’d have nightmares.

[NickMimi]

The Snake-Oil threads across every forum across the internet really have convinced the larger population of audiophiles that bits are bits and there is no reason or difference in using a streamer or any upgrade to the digital front end required. Constant measurements and reports that no scientific or technical proof exists that anything besides good measuring equipment can provide “clean” sound are argued on paper and rarely on systems cable of extreme resolution.

Most Folks simply don’t have the ability to direct comparison components on systems capable of extreme resolution and thus will use their own sense of layman’s logic to argue their points against any discernible sound differences that exist on systems capable of showing sound signature differences with the use of upgraded parts.

Anyway, yes i too have noticed that many many people use direct USB out, even i do so on my main system, there is a large market for good USB implementation.

[M0N]

USB can be great, and on some dacs even preferable to their spdif type inputs (I prefer usb on the horizon over it’s other digital inputs), it’s just important to get a really nice quality usb source and quality cabling to really take advantage. USB gets a bad rap from dacs which neglect proper implementation or people using crap sources and cabling

Doesn’t mean that all mfg should cater to usb, some implement spdif/aes/i2s better and that might allow for more performance and scalability that way depending on the design, or perhaps usb compromises another aspect of the design they don’t like so they omit it entirely, really all depends on the dac and the source at hand for what results you might get with the differing digital inputs on a dac

I will say for a lot of dacs running dsd that usb tends to be consistently better there in that regard than dealing with DoP over aes/spdif

@dB_Cooper

I worked with LTA in the past and I have a lot of respect for them as a company and for their products.

But this is just another example of an amp manufacturer (Krell, McIntosh, Ayre, Levison, etc) trying to cash in on the DAC market…they are always mediocre.

I’m sure they are going to get all sorts of raving reviews because they have that “ZOTL” sound but it’s going to be a mediocre digital stage with the excellent ZOTL tube outputs stage.

No one can be everything to everyone.

Hmmmmm, while on one hand I sort of agree that some mfg are making dacs more as an afterthought than others, but another mfg bashing something they haven’t even heard from another company they also apparently respect is kinda a low blow overall (especially if he’s sending stuff like this to customers) and not a great look for your business. I’d be curious to see how he criticizes a mfg he doesn’t already have respect for lol. Especially comes off bad when now they’re technically going to be competitors when their new dacs come out. Not to say another mfg can’t have opinions on others, but just can’t help but think that statements like this just rub me the wrong way. Just guessing from his part essentially (even if it might be an accurate guess or not) that’s being presented as if it’s destined to turn out that way. Would be one thing if he had heard their finalized unit and thought that, but even then out of respect and appropriate business practice that’s probably not something that’s a smart move to go and tell people, to just guess that it’s not going to be actually good and tell his customers that as if that’s how it will turn out just reads as pretty scummy/shady

Edit: then again I guess this isn’t that fair since just realized it was a private email posted in public, not like he’s putting this out in the open himself

[dB_Cooper]

I think there’s an aspect of generalization where he’s sort of lumping LTA with the other examples, McIntosh, Krell and others. Which in all fairness there hasn’t ever been much fanfare about DACs from those vendors.

I also found it interesting that he’s specifically calling out a potential shortcoming on the digital end of the LTA DAC but specifically saying that it’s going to sound great because of the ZOTL analog end where I almost assumed he’s heard it based on the specifics of his commentary but given your questioning maybe he’s just commenting on it from a design standpoint, as if he knows enough to have an expectation.

And YES, I’d have never shared this in a public forum, I treat this place as private because in a lot of ways it is a closed group.

[M0N]

@dB_Cooper

I think there’s an aspect of generalization where he’s sort of lumping LTA with the other examples, McIntosh, Krell and others. Which in all fairness there hasn’t ever been much fanfare about DACs from those vendors.

I mean out of what he mentioned, both krell and levison cd players and dacs used to be some really highly lauded options (like the krell kps 20i or studio or reference dac, or the ML no36 or no360s dac or their no31 cd transport), they aren’t respected with their current options now as they either turned more into lifestyle or installer brands or fell off, but they used to make some seriously good stuff in the past and were really well known and respected for it. I would agree that dacs I’ve heard from ayre and mcintosh are mediocre though most of the time (although with ayre if you can get them dirt cheap in the used market they make sense again lol). I get what he’s saying for sure though, I more have a problem with bashing something that he both hasn’t even heard and hasn’t even been released yet from a future competitor. But I understand where he’s coming from at the same time with the general sentiment that there’s a lot of mediocre dacs out there from companies that focus more on the analog side of things

@dB_Cooper

I also found it interesting that he’s specifically calling out a potential shortcoming on the digital end of the LTA DAC but specifically saying that it’s going to sound great because of the ZOTL analog end where I almost assumed he’s heard it based on the specifics of his commentary but given your questioning maybe he’s just commenting on it from a design standpoint, as if he knows enough to have an expectation.

To me it just read on a design standpoint, but who knows perhaps he has heard it, I don’t know, just opinions anyways, but just comes across as a bit unprofessional.

@dB_Cooper

And YES, I’d have never shared this in a public forum, I treat this place as private because in a lot of ways it is a closed group.

Sure, but keep in mind it’s not private. Anyone can join and read what you post here, and even if this was entirely locked off, it’s still an email that was sent directly to you, likely without the assumption that it would then be shared to a larger group of people (of course it’s good practice to treat business emails as ones that will be read by others even if you don’t intend for them to be, but still out of principle it was only likely directed toward you and not sent with the intention for it to be shared around). This isn’t the most public place you could share an email, but it’s still a fundamentally public one. The moment something only intended for your eyes goes to someone else, it’s no longer private

[dB_Cooper]

It’s a fair comment and I do understand your pov. I’m okay if you wipe it out the post as the idea was was I was trying to convey and it has.

[M0N]

No I’m not asking you to do that, was just voicing my personal gripes lol. If anything once I realized it was from a personal email I should have deleted my post since most of my criticism shouldn’t apply to a private conversation or something, I thought he was presenting that stance publicly for a second at first without reading the post lol

[Polygonhell]

@M0N

To me it just read on a design standpoint, but who knows perhaps he has heard it,

To me it just read like sour grapes on DAC’s by none specialist DAC manufacturers not following his specific philosophy “sounding good” because of the output section and getting good reviews.

He clearly has a very specific viewpoint on what makes a good digital section, that probably isn’t aligned with a lot of other designers, doesn’t make it invalid, but you have to read it through that lens.

[Souldriver]

So on the X even though he put work into it, he included a usb lift to fully take it out of the circuit. But is looking to make a lower end dac with only usb. Interesting. Maybe its less expensive to implement? At sub $3k there still must be budget to add other inputs as i would think that the big cost savings isnt elsewhere and not input implementation.

Also saying a dac is bad because the digital side is meh but the zotl carries it is kind of moot to me. Afterall isn’t it the end result anyway? A bit like the measurements argument here. It measures mehh but sounds godly, oh well better luck next time.

I find with Ben is best when talking about his own products, he is usually on point and realistic about his products each generation, mods, and gains. When it moves to other’s offerings it gets a little downbeat.

I mentioned that i liked his 45-day trial offering and that i believe the Mojo is a good match with my lampi and here is part of his response:

@Ben

We average less than a 10% annual return for refund on our 45-day no-risk audition…some years we have had literally ZERO returns.

I’ve heard the Lampizators and we’ve replaced quite a few of them over the years. I certainly can believe our DACs are equally as engaging but in my experience the Lampizators are no where near as harmonically coherent or have anywhere near the subtlety and nuance of our DACs. They are what I like to call “attractive distortion.”

Which to say i disagree with his lampi statements would be an understatement (i tend to think their strength is bringing the subtle ques and nuance to the front and giving harmonics an ethereal quality) it shows if something doesnt follow his dac design guideline then it is .

[kerls]

I emailed him summer 2021 when I was auditioning the MHDT Labs Atlantis, Orchid, and Pagoda balanced. I had been eying his DACs for a couple years by that point and noticed that the EVO line was gone. It was shortly before or around the time the X came out. He only had a few set models and I lamented I was bummed he’d removed the customization abilities. Whatever, we got to chatting and I mentioned that I really liked the AD1862 chip and that despite the Atlantis being their “entry level” model, I found it was far more engaging than the Orchid, which I found incredibly boring, and was much better controlled than the bloated bass of the Pagoda. I mentioned something like it being a common trait of the 1704 chips from numerous other subjective impressions on numerous other DACs all using that chip.

He went off on this rant about how no DAC has bloated bass or whatever and that if it’s being heard, it’s an issue with the power supply and other stuff. It was extremely off-putting and honestly kind of made me not want to support him because it was just so arrogant and “I’m the only one who knows what they’re talking about regarding DACs.”

I also wanted to be like, “My brother in christ, they’re the exact same DACs with the exact same internals aside from the chips and any other minor ancillary accommodations that must be made to use those chips.”

Maybe he’s right and PSU does matter and makes bass bloated or not, but when they’re all the same basic implementation, how you can you tell me that I’m not hearing what the chips do?

The AD1862 was tight, fast, and punchy with excellent engagement and a lifelike sound that no other chip has brought to my system.

The TDA1541 just sounded dull and boring to me. There were no dynamics and no engagement factor whatsoever.

The PCM1704s were to the extreme. It was very bright, often to the point of causing pain, and bass quantity was massive while quality was very disappointing. And I may be incorrect, but I believe the balanced version has an even bigger/stronger PSU than the single-ended versions, so if anything, its available power should’ve been a lot more than required.

Whatever. He’s quirky and that’s fine. I just won’t engage him again.

[dB_Cooper]

@Souldriver

it shows if something doesnt follow his dac design guideline then it is .

One thing I’ve learned in the hobby is how many ways there are to skin a cat. Don’t fault the guy for having his own opinions and we obviously tend to like his products. I think in the end, trust your own ears and leave it at that.

[Souldriver]

@dB_Cooper

One thing I’ve learned in the hobby is how many ways there are to skin a cat.

Exactly. And different tastes and different moods. Either Ben doesnt think so, or he truely thinks his one way is so elite it cant be beat. Unless he makes another higher end model, of course.

[dB_Cooper]

It’s going to be a long break in road. Sounds completely off. Ben said it would take about 200 hours to come into its own and would continue to develop into 1000 hours. It sounds very high frequencies forward with recessed mids. If I didn’t already know what it will eventually sound like I’d be disappointed; l have to stick with it. The price we pay for not leaving well enough alone. lol

A lot of changes on my upgraded Pro that it’s essentially starting from scratch. Changed the dual coax SPDIF inputs into AES and BNC SPDIF and the new Lundahl transformers. It should start becoming listenable in a couple more days though.

From a physical standpoint, a hell of a lot more metal on this as it weighs easily six or seven more lbs than the old one, apparently the additional noise shielding add quite a bit of weight.

@Souldriver you’re gonna laugh, I’m kind of missing the papyrus.

[SaberPunch]

Edit: nvm, just played the wrong song. The visceral impact is still there.

[NickMimi]

@dB_Cooper , How is the DAC break in coming along? I know we spoke and you were very pleased but do you have any good comments and experiences to capture for posterity? Maybe anything else interesting you decided to upgrade or performance enhancements you have made to anything else in order to accommodate the sound character of the upgraded DAC?

[dB_Cooper]

The thought came into my head a few days ago when the thread topic popped up. This is the best DAC I’ve ever fit into my system. I’m sure there’s better, but the EVO Pro ticks all of the boxes that were important to me, is fun, doesn’t make my music listening laborious and has wonderful synergy with the LTA UL+ which is part of the formula to the sound. It’s also scaled VERY well with improved source.

My only issue is that I simply couldn’t get the dCS Network Bridge to play nice with the Mojo via AES which is frustrating as I really would have kept it but it forced me towards a different digital source solution. Currently sitting with the opticalRendu into an Alpha USB then AES into the EVO Pro.

As it stands the last component is the Voxativ Zeth; they brought the system to an entirely new level and I don’t believe there’s an obvious bottle neck now. My ears are happy, my wallet is taking a deep sigh of relief and I’m in a good place.

As far as upgrading from the EVO B4B to a Pro, it was worth it, and that’s the best recommendation I could say. The upgrade consisted of an entirely new bank of transformers and the noise shielding. I would have jumped to the X SE, but I was scared of unanticipated changes that would bring as I really wanted to keep the signature.

My total out of pocket for the DAC including trade in, shipping, etc was $7200 and it’s funny because when I started out in the hobby I would have seen that as what an entire system should have cost. Now I’m justifying that as a bargain just for the DAC. C’est la vie, but it’s presented itself as a good and natural stopping point for me at this time.

Putting a chain like this together has been a transformative and revelatory experience for me and I wouldn’t have been able to do it without help from the community.

[rgdelato]

Very cool, you love to hear it. …and honestly, it’s really exciting to hear that even the jump from the B4B to the Pro feels worthwhile. (I say as someone who’s owned a V3 for the past year, lol.)

[dB_Cooper]

I should add that there isn’t anything “more” in the Pro that wasn’t in the B4B. It’s more like there’s less in the way between me and the music. I can’t say the B4B had noise but I can’t explait it any other way than to say the upgrade allows for the usual blah blah blah. Deeper background, quieter floor which then allows more of the subtlety to come though.

There isn’t anything I could add about what it does to the music that I hadn’t already said about the B4B it’s just that this is even more so. There’s something magical about this DAC that other DACs I’ve listened to didn’t deliver on. It really draws you into another place, a place where the music you’re listening to happens to be playing. It creates an environment not a sound stage. It’s not a dryer more realistic sound like the Weiss had, this is more organic, a more corporeal sound, more tangible albeit a bit less textured than the Weiss. In a lot of ways, I miss some of that in the Weiss but this just has that X factor that’s difficult to qualify because I’ve never heard it before and honestly think that some people may not like it in a different chain because it has it’s own coloration and presents the sound very convincingly as an environment not as a sound stage. I guess that’s one of the things I can point to that makes it better than the B4B, it’s able to much better convey the space around the instruments. Those extremely low level pieces of information that convey three directionality that clue us into the size and shape of a space.

I should have stated this in my first response.

Part of the revelation about a system and seeing it as a chain has come from the fact that I’ve tried so many variations, cables, speaker positioning, room treatment, isolation and vibration damping and then cables again (LOL) that it’s almost pointless to do apples to apples comparisons in the hobby. We have to agree on something as a baseline otherwise it would just be nihilism and despondency because everything I’m talking about is simply my system in my space. So when you go listen to a $100k system at a show and you come back home saying, hey I like my system, it’s because you’ve made it to suit your own taste, and the hundreds of hours spent putting it together to suit those tastes, it’s something a room at a show can never replicate.

Everything matters… everything.