I just want to say that the Z10e is way way way too slept on. If you are wanting a high end energizer it is a pretty fair shout better than the BHSE (though way different signature as well). It takes less than a song to realize just how much the BHSE is gimping CRBN/009S/X9k/Shang. I will be trying to get an at-home demo to be able to compare against AIC->iESL. TBH it also changed my opinion of CRBN a fair bit (went from “that’s damned good, but I have sus” to “maybe I need this too” and that was all on a damned qutest while almost all my BHSE experience is with a dave or Weiss502)
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Slight rant starting, but it’s not slept on. It’s purposefully pushed out/ignored, because for some reason the idea that the bhse is still the greatest thing since sliced bread is still hyper prominent; the insane overhype of all gilmore based stat designs needs to die. I really enjoyed the z10e when I got brief demos, and it was better than the bhse or a carbon. But no, you say that anywhere, and you’ll start getting replies from someone from the kg cult. This isn’t a problem of the z10e alone, there’s many other great stat amps that are unfairly shit on by people who typically haven’t even heard it or just look at the internals who just want to make themselves feel good about sticking with the gilmore cult
I’ve seen the z10e bashed by those same people without any experience with it, and a lot of those people are seen as “trusted” in the stat community, so it’s no surprise when the amp isn’t popular because of the anti hype to any brand or product that didn’t have gilmores hands on it
Not solely blaming them for the lack of popularly, but they do play a pretty big role in that imo, and have steered the stat community for a long time as the stat/fun police while pushing everyone toward one or two single amps for the most part
@Eskamobob1 if you do get one in, would love to hear your thoughts on it, would be nice if there was more actual info about it out there, was awesome when I demoed
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Hahaha. I wasn’t going to slag off the KG cult, but you are right. It reminds me a lot of the chord cult. There are some fantastic damn products, but they aren’t just the end all be all. Plus, guess what, they are all just old designs at this point. Shit has moved on and gotten better and more competitive. TBH I am a bit of a KG design believer (CFA3 is fantastic for example) but the value proposition seems to just dissolve once its no longer DIY. It goes from “value” to “competitive” and “competitive” isn’t an indefinite status.
@DanMellinger has a Z10e that he adores. After talking to him I expected it to best BHSE. What I wasn’t expecting was the difference between it and BHSE to be the difference between mid-fi and high-fi. The jump was legit the kind jump you get going from Arya to Sus (maybe not quite, but you get the picture). Very stark, very obvious, and big enough I can see it even overcoming a preference for the BHSE signature.
This whole realization has got me thinking about what else exists that is great out there for estats that just no one talks about. Like, if that is what a 6k estat amp should sound like now, how is the kodachi? Does that beat BHSE? The new Erksonic gets purported to be similar SQ level to BHSE but a different signature. Does that mean Z10e shits all over it as well? If you want Z10e+++ where do you even go? 3ES is a totally different signature, so that’s out. Viva is Push pull, so that’s probably leaning more 3es than z10e at a macro scale.
Then you have transformer boxes too. iESL is a damned big step over SRD-7 and something like AIC->iesl is already at least in the same ball park as z10e. how much better would a real big boy transformer box be? TBH this weekend opened up some serious questions for me in audio (one of which is what car should I sell to afford this shit)
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See I just have never really liked KG designs lol, but yes it’s really more a problem of community than the designs themselves
Yes it’s pretty sizable imo, the bhse just doesn’t hold up from a technical perspective lol
DIY T2 bro.
No clue really, since that would pretty much just be something you could only get from LTA. I guess you could go for some higher end Berning speaker amps with a transformer? Really there’s not as many higher end estat amps options as there should be, because the community is consistently hostile to new offerings which doesn’t give much incentive for mfg to cater to this smaller market.
See for me the technical jump from the 3es elite (not heard the regular one) was enough to put aside any signature differences just like going from bhse → z10e. Also does really depend on the tubes you have in there
You likely just need to go custom or go for the aforementioned big boys. I would agree the viva is probably more like the z10e than the woo is given house sound
The question is though where you do find a big boy transformer box, and are you willing to pay for one lol? Transformers can get pretty insanely expensive. It would also depend on the amps and preamp in front of that transformer box. As you saw, the aic + iesl is similar ballpark as the z10e, so it’s about half the value compared to a dedicated estat amp. Which is really the big problem, to go the transformer box route only makes sense value wise if you already have higher tier gear that you use for something else to also use with the box, but buying it only for an estat setup really isn’t a good value (from my experience). This is really what was the final nail in the coffin for stats for me. They just couldn’t scale as far as I wanted them to due to simply lack of options, and after the few high tier options you have, going past that gets way too messy and not worthwhile
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TBF I haven’t heard a ton of them. Only non-head amp one ive heard is CFA3 and I think it puches a bit above its weight class. For the head amp ones I basically always just feel they are good but too much.
I was really surprised. I was assuming x10e was just going to be a different flavor + maybe half a tier.
The T2 shills are the same people as the BHSE shills though (tin foil hat). But really, yah. This seems like the choice, and I do want to hear it pretty bad. If I do order shang I will probably pester a friend of mine that has it for a demo.
Other than that though, you are right. The top end is really barren. I heard the malvalve at canjam and tbh it didn’t seem like it help up very well. Outside of that I just don’t have much trust since the pautlauf doesn’t seem to review very well and nothing else even has any reviews in the first place.
From BHSE I agree. BHSE is tonaly fine for x9k and 009s but absolute trash for shang. The 3ES is a massive step up there and I was already kind of on the “I can live with these issues” train. The Z10e and iesl experience completely removed even those worries for me. Maybe we can convince woo to make an estat version of WA23? That thing had some great stank to it without just being demolished by the 33 in technicalities (a step down I think, but a very small one if its there)
Luckily I actualy have done some digging here already. There are a couple fairly well respected transformer manufacturers that do their own boxed (lundail being a big one). Not even too crazy either (I think about 2.5-4k maxed out). There are some Japanese options that the owner of mass kobo told me to look into as well (haven’t done that yet, also need to see if airtight will make one) as well as the people that make the minute amp in Thailand. TBH I have found more promising options in the transformer box realm than I have in the energizer one.
Either way, I am nearly positive AIC->iesl is enough for me to make the jump as is. Everything else will just be gravy. This weekend has realy motivated me to thin the herd up consolidate up tbh
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Haven’t heard the cfa, but I’ve heard the headamp and older ones, just not my thing personally
Yeah nope the lta stuff is great value lol
It’s a jack of all but master of none, it’s equally good at both stats and traditional perhaps leaning more toward traditional, but it’s really not a good value because of that
I just don’t really pay attention to stat amp reviews since a lot of them end up driving me nuts lol (or are very non reviews). As you said though assuming there’s any info at all. @Pr3ssAltF4 tried the trilogy and liked it, that’s potentially another one worth looking into, not heard it myself though
When I had a bhse in with the shang, it was really bad lol
I think you could possibly get there with a tube swap, or at least closer, but not heard the 23 so don’t know
Oh yeah there are great options, it’s just that they’ll get really costly really quick lol
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LTA MZ3 posterity update when used as a pre-amplifier. I had the opportunity to do some tube rolling today, (it’s been fun and enlightening).
With LTA-MZ3, 2 pair of 6SN7 tried today, 3 other various pair tried previously. I can definitively say that the 6sn7 compared to 12SN7 have a smaller overall soundstage presentation in width. Height does not vary but the width is definitely smaller and much more intimate. I thought the first 2 times i experienced this it was a fluke and even blamed the DAC, nope, i know each piece in the system well enough at this point that i am able to distinguish where the change in presentation is coming from with good confidence. 6 volt, 6SN7 will have a more intimate and withdrawn soundstage than the 12v 12SN7.
If you have an MZ3 and want to widen your soundstage a bit try swapping in a pair of 12SN7’s, this presentation difference is apparent in my unit. (at least when being used as a pre-amp w/ speakers, at some point i will try it w/ HP’s too 
)
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Looking at the Z40+ or UL+ as potential end game do it all magic box to replace my amps (would actually save money along the way).
Is it really as good as what they’re saying about them?
@M0N I read earlier in the thread you ran the Susvara from the speaker taps, how would that be compared to the headphones out?
@dB_Cooper you’re integrating these with subwoofers right? any thoughts on that?
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They’re pretty damn impressive if you have things that pair with them well (and you’re after what they offer)
I had the power amps, so I had no headphone outs since I didn’t have the integrated, and I had 2 ultralinear power amps
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You’ll get half the power from the the UL so you’ll have to buy two, the value prop goes way down. @M0N always finds ways to spend more of your money. lol
The nice thing about the Integrated amps from LTA is that the HP out is basically the same as the speaker taps according to Mark when I talked to him to describe the difference when used as a HP amplifier between the MZ3. So you’ll get more power from the HP amp and the same signature as the integrated amp portion.
Between the Z40+ which didn’t exist when I bought the UL+ I’ve been happy with my choice however I will say that you have to be very sure about the path you want to take from a speaker standpoint as 20 watts of power will mean that you are bound to 90+ dB efficiency loudspeakers to play with authority. The sound of the UL however has been sublime. Eyeopening and I can say with confidence, it was the first genuine high end piece of gear that I’ve had the pleasure of hearing and IMO it’s a bargain at the price point.
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How do you think it’ll pair with the Wavedream?
Is there a reason not to go with the Z40+?
Have to tried it with the Susvara maybe? any other TOTL headphones?
Well
If you want a cleaner and slightly more technical sound, the UL better fits, but the Z40 is likely a better match for most
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agreed with M0N, I was looking for exactly what I got with the UL. The only TOTL can I’ve kept is the D8K pro and it’s a very good pairing. Scary real you are there bass presentation. I will say that the MZ3 had to be pushed with the D8K, not that it couldn’t handle it. The UL+ is effortless with the pairing.
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Z40+ is very appealing to me. Sounds like it’s a little richer and more fluid which I like. Preamp (including phono), balanced inputs, subwoofer outputs, powerful enough to not be limiting with speakers, probably good enough with almost any headphones, tube-ss hybrid… all in one box. What’s not to love?
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@Highsinad has the 40. I think he tried sus on it but not positive
Another though on the conversation I had with Mark, the UL is not intended for tube rolling part of it is that they use NOS GE television tubes. The pre and output tubes are NOS Mullard as well which isn’t listed. It’s basically why there’s no tube option on the ordering page.
But honestly I wouldn’t worry about tubes with the LTA Integrateds as they’re more than likely going to outlive the owner. lol
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Well I bought the z40+ and will have it here on Saturday. My ears love me, my wallet hates me. I definitely need to sell the Enleum now lol
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Just a heads up, LTA just throw whatever in their amps. Ever amp that leaves has different tubes since if they measure the same they are considered good regardless of year, make, etc. @krack found this out when he went to their facility and spoke with them about why every z10e seems to sound different
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Yeah, pot luck on everything other than the UL because of the TV tubes. lol
Congrats!
But now than I know, just to fuck with you though, I’m going to go and offer the guy $6500 to sell it to me. 
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