General Speaker Help/Discussion Thread

Speakers
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I know you were looking at stuff from upscale with a natural slightly bassier sig iirc, for under 2k somewhat I think something like the Polk Legend L200 or GoldenEar BRX are nice bookshelves that will pair well with an A23+ and should be sold by upscale

The polks have a real meaty and bassy signature with a pretty wide and open stage, can hit pretty hard and dig pretty low for bookshelves, really nice smooth and richer midrange with good timbre, detail/resolution is actually pretty good given their signature/voicing and also their slight forgiveness. Solid imaging too, treble is well extended but not forward, although they can sound slightly on the more dull side at times and lack some real get up and go, but I don’t think this is a big enough issue personally to disregard what else they do so well. Also dynamically active with a bit more macro focus. The only thing is they really suck power and need a beefy amp, but the parasound should handle that no problem

The brx are a fairly balanced signature that I might call a neutral signature with a bit of extra forwardness and fun, almost a bit w shaped. Treble extension, clarity, and sparkle are strong while also being smooth and not overly forward compared to the rest, very tight speaker in the midrange with great clarity, and a more microdynamic focus without letting down much in macro. Very sharp placement, and very holographic stage, it’s not super wide but very involving in it’s spatial recreation. Impact wise was reasonably punchy for it’s size too. Resolution was very good and lots of nuance.

Generally the brx was a more neutral forward signature that focused more on the midrange to treble, where the l200 was more lower midrange and bass with a bit warm relaxed lean. Spatially the l200 threw a bigger stage but the brx offered more stage clarity, dynamically the polk is more macro and the goldenear is more micro, resolution wise I do think the brx has a bit of an edge, speed and separation wise the brx does better, timbre wise I actually might like the polk a bit more, when it comes to impact the polk can hit harder with more authority, extension wise the polk is better for bass and goldenear is better for treble.

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43

I wouldn’t go that far, I do think that greatly limits his options, but you could move up to like mtm and still benefit. If you want to continue to lean into smaller studio monitors I’d also consider neumann kh 80 dsp monitors @elementze, those along with the mtm are compact and also can work well in less than ideal conditions

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44

Thanks, these are definitely interesting. I’ll have to do some reading.

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45

Oh nice amp :+1:

What’s your budget? And signature preference? And limitations (size etc)?

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46

I’m kinda open. I’d like a list of various things to do research on. Keeps me busy

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47

Well ime that’s a pretty easy amp to work with. Elac and BBC style monitors sounded great for a smoother more laid back presentation. Triangle and Klipsch for a more energetic one.

Kinda hard to rec stuff when it’s so wide open lol

Edit: maybe consider the wharfedale or spendor stuff if you’re looking at upscale audio, I really enjoyed similar speakers paired with the a23+

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48

Hi Nick, My first post here. I was just breezing through the forum for a feel of things and noticed your post mentioning room acoustics which is a subject dear to my heart. It has huge influence on the results which seems much overlooked by the industry and consumer.

Let me suggest that there is no need to hire ‘professionals’ who in many instances will oversupply and deaden the room. There is REW, a free download with tons of help on the net. Add an inexpensive microphone and this could become your best investment ever!

It is precisely what some pro would use or perhaps HolmImpulse (also free) I use Omnimic.

The idea is to achieve a specific delay which will vary according to the size of your room. In your case about 500ms. which should be across the full spectrum. The goal is to have the sound decay by 60dB and known as T60.

To keep this reasonably brief, you take a reading on your laptop of the room’s response and examine the result, which will look, in an untreated room, quite horrible. Think roller coaster.

You will see displayed a waterfall plot or CSD (cumulative spectral display) and see which are the problem areas. This does away with any guesswork.

In brief all rooms need treatment and bass is the biggest issue and without any measuring equipment if you were to introduce bass traps and first reflection point absorbers and/or diffusion you will hear your system like never before.

The thick rug or wall tapestry is really only a narrow-band absorber and does little. What’s needed is broad-band absorption. If you’re into DIY they are easy to make and cheap.

I can go on but this may not be something you are comfortable with.

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49

@sailor , welcome aboard! My first question should have been, “If i can’t hear a problem, is there really a problem?” Lol, yes, i have known about room correction software for a while, and i agree it is a good way to test a room. I guess i am way behind the curve when it comes to pricing, i assumed i could just pay someone to tell me what my problem areas might be. For some reason i forgot that everything in this hobby costs as much as Rhodium… :rofl:

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50

I’d disagree there. If you hire someone like a studio designer or acoustic engineer that works more in the mid level pro scene you can get that for sure, but if you hire someone that works more in the high end space (and to be fair the high end consumer and higher end pro side of things start to merge together at some point), they can be really helpful in getting your room on point with proper design and custom fabrication. But it’s absolutely not needed and as you say can be done yourself pretty easily with great results

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51

Yes correct, I mentioned overdamping as a caution. I’m the other side of the pond and have a friend in the UK who used the British GIK company and ended up with too much stuff. There are a number of complaints about this.

I am not pointing a finger at Glenn Kuras of GIK USA who I know nothing about.

Having a grasp of the fundamentals of acoustics and the ability to measure means a move to a new listening room will not require the service and further expense of hiring the pro’s again.

Also to be considered is if a sub or two or three are added or even an existing sub needs to be moved, the program can reveal the optimum place/s.

While on the subject of subs, the DBA system works brilliantly to tame problem bass nodes, however the decay time will still be excessive and bass traps help here too. Combining bass traps and a DBA needs to be experienced.

This link provides info on the Distributed Bass Array concept:

Welti, Floyd and Geddes are proponents of this system.

It may appear daunting but one system I helped with in a small room, which are the ones that need the most help especially when it’s shape resembles a cube, worked beyond what I was expecting. We added 3 small sealed boxes with a single 8" driver in each. The drivers were all different. I remember providing one of them which was scavenged from an old Boston. One box was used to support a table lamp, one had a pot plant on top and the third as a side table next to the sofa. They hardly intruded at all but they resulted in a transformation, probably helped by the randomness as per Geddes approach.

There was no space to add vertical bass traps in the corners so after consultation with the ‘boss’ she graciously agreed to let us try a unit that ran horizontally across the back wall/ceiling corner and covered in a fabric chosen by da boss. It looked very smart.

We had a lot of fun doing this. The box to support the plant was made 260mm square and about 800mm high to exactly match the bookshelf cabinet and painted the same colour with the driver at the bottom facing down. Modeling showed the volume to be a little too big so we put some bricks inside. :grinning:

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52

Ron of New record day demonstrates the easiest method to assist w/ standard speaker placement I have tried yet. Most methods are some sort of variation of these numeric formulas. Placing the tape on the floor with this method makes it very easy to keep track of and reproduce what you are doing over and over. Once you have your room mapped out and memorized it gets easier.
This method actually helped me today the visuals on the floor are really useful.

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53

He’s my go to for speakers!

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54

My PSA for the day:

Speaker placement and listening position can and will change what a really good system does for the better. I’m preparing to re-model my house so i currently have free reign to throw out unwanted furniture and get silly with my rooms…so i did.

I ran the measurements i needed to find good dimensions in my main listening room lengthwise and plopped a single chair right in the sweet spot. BAM, yes :muscle: these math guys know what they are talking about. A second and 3rd set of ears to verify what I am hearing would be nice but i can say unequivocally that trying to build a really nice 2 channel set-up around the particulars of your furniture and what is socially acceptable style is a waste of your money.

I’m learning… it’s been a difficult experience to work around normal home impediments but i am understanding why the best listening areas are dedicated. So many of the finer nuances are lost when the sound is bouncing around willy nilly and you are off by feet. Every new experience opens my eyes to things I’ve read about but have not been able to implement in my own space before.

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55

I will also reiterate how important treatment is as well. I haven’t got mine to where I want it to be, but I know most people ignore treatment or are not allowed to have any due to “WAF”

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I would love to hear what a fully treated room sounds like with just the right dimensions that match the speaker perfectly. It’s unfortunate most of us won’t get to hear that. It must be a glorious experience!

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57

One of the most useful lessons taken over the many years I have been playing with various styles of audio equipment is always the fact that experience and training my ear has always been a critical factor in the hobby. I have always been held back by my own lack of knowledge and experience. An ignorance of knowing what to listen for in the particular situation. Every time I sit in a new listening environment for the first few times, if I am lucky enough to get multiple sessions with particular gear, I try to learn. Sometimes I am successful most times I am not, but dammit if I have not tried for close to 35 years now.

Everything sounds great until I learn and fully understand what particulars I am listening for.

Recently I did not know how deep a system could sound because I had never properly understood or listened for spatial depth. Same with really good instrument separation. I knew about soundstage width and height, but the critical element of depth and space had been lacking in my own experience ability.

I have even less knowledge about what instruments are supposed to sound like so I’m be trying to learn that too. It’s easy to impress me because I lack knowledge and understanding of particulars and when the music sounds nice I assume I am happy.

Knowledge and experience has been my downfall and driving factor my entire life. The more I learn the better I get at things. I don’t know what I am ignorant of until I’m not anymore, then that particular bit of knowledge becomes my driving factor until I have mastered it and moved onto the next level or step of whatever I’m trying to master.

I work with folks that are masters/certified experts at their trade. They are hands on teachers that teach the teachers/trainers that educate the new folks of our trade. Our own masters though fully spend 50% of their own time training and learning and further refining their own skills. The education does not stop until they retire completely from hands on participation and then they go on a call back list that is used when needed to call them for long distance support in situations where the new masters need old school knowledge from the old workhorses. Our trade can be deadly to the operator so folks that have survived to retire to a ripe old age are valued in the community. Mastery of knowledge and experience has been a driving factor in my life for decades now.

I value every bit of knowledge I can get from this community, it’s a hobby where the potential is only limited by your own dedication and abilities.

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58

I moved house recently and it became quickly clear that my floorstanders will not work anymore so I’m in the market for some bookshelves. I have little fingers in the house ( that can’t keep their hands of the bloody volume knob ) and a renovation on the planning that will give me a dedicated listening space ( and I had a DAC planned as next purchase) so I’m not going overly expensive here. Budget is around 2k, can go up for the right speaker, preferable lower and a good bang for the buck, like always…

My chain is Sotm Ultra Neo, BF2, Rega Aethos, plan is to replace the BF2 with either Holo Audio Spring 3 or Lampi Amber 3. Probably the Amber 3 in my head right now, my amp is SE and somehow I have a feeling the Spring 3 is best for balanced and I know myself, that will keep bugging me. I have some constraints in placing as a can’t go very far from boundaries. Back wall for speakers will be about 60 cms/ 2feet from speaker front, sidewall about the same but possible to increase distance a bit. Listening distance from speaker will be about 270 cms, small 9 feet. Wall is about 1.5 m behind listening seat. The room is about 50m², I take about 20 for my listening setup and speakers will be on the long wall…

I just like to enjoy music, artist intent, I couldn’t care less, its all fake, I want the kind of fake I like. In general I like to be on the warm side of neutral, not that coloured warm, just a bit denser maybe on timbre and tonality. I also listen to all kinds of music so it should be a jack of all trades, plenty of speed to keep up with fast paced electronic music, no weird frequency bumps that will sound great with this but suck at that, refined and sweet enough for jazz, classic rock, vocals. Good low volume performance is also on the list and oh yeah, also non-fatiguing sound but they all promise that :slight_smile: I’m not good at the right audiophile terms, I just enjoy gear and music, so I hope this kinda makes sense.

My current speaker is able to project this wall of sound, I want to add more soundstage depth and layering, it should have some ability to create 3D. I also want to be able to pick individual instruments so there needs to be enough separation and air but I’m willing to trade a bit of imaging accuracy for the depth and layering. I don’t need them to be extremely critical and expose every fault in the recording but I do want some level of transparency to pick up changes in my chain. A broad sweet spot is also a consideration, I’m not the only one listening and I don’t want the kind of speaker that will only give when its pointed to your ears. So good off horizontal axis, I can live with smaller spread on vertical axis.

Some speakers that crossed my mind (I haven’t been able to listen to any of these yet):

Revel M126Be: If budget was no constraint, based on reading, this seems a very good candidate. Pretty flat frequency, warm side of neutral I think, reported to be a very enjoyable speaker that has excellent off axis performance, capable of creating a top 3D soundstage. 4.4k so if I buy this I will have to park my plans for a DAC upgrade for a while. They don’t up show used much, certainly not in my area.

ATC SCM19: They show up for a bit less than 2k used but I think they need lots of space and might be a tad to neutral for my use case.

PMC twenty5.22 (not the i’s): Also around 2k used, they get good reviews but I’m not sure. Again concerns about placement and I wonder why these pop up so much used, usually the good speakers don’t show up used in such large quantities.

Elac Unifi Reference (UBR62): They get good review on their technical performance, seems to have an exceptional off axis performance and pretty neutral. At 1k seems a good back for the buck but I have the impression not a single review said they they have a good, engaging sound, its all more about the technical performance so i’m worried they actually sound a bit thin and not musical.

Jean Marie Reynaud Bliss Jubile: Around 2k, these probably score well on tonality and timbre but also a bit to much on the warm side, midrange focussed, not enough speed and probably lacking some detail on the top end. Not a jack of all trades.

Goldenear BRX: About 1.6k, not the prettiest in my book but they seem to tick a lot of boxes on paper. I wonder about their ability to create 3D soundstage and their poor vertical off axis performance is poor enough to be concerning for me.

Buchardt S400 MKII: 1.8 k in presale, these seem to good to be true. I already followed the original S400 reviews with interest and now the MKII seems to really address most of the concerns of the initial version. Not difficult in placement, enjoyable tonality & timbre, full sounding, capable of creating 3D soundstage, maybe also a bit difficult on the vertical axis but seems manageable.

I’m interested in getting some opinions about possible pairings for my chain and situation/preferences. My finger is itching to pre-order the Buchardt’s, I’ll probably have one on pre-order before anyone replies but I’m still interested in getting some opinions on that. Should I believe the hype or am I making a mistake here? They have a 45 day trial period and delivery will probably be for early 2022 so I have some time to look at options…

Apologies for the many words that required reading before you got at this point.

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I’d agree with amber 3 based on the amp + what you mention with preferences below

So for what you mentioned you are after, honestly I might be concerned that this speaker isn’t as organic enough, it’s a very capable speaker overall but each time I’ve heard the revel speakers, I’ve always been left wanting a bit more realism factor. I guess presentation sounding a bit artificial might be my complaint. Nothing really to complain about, but nothing to write home about either from when I have had demos

This is a impressive speaker for what you are after and I’d seriously consider it, although I have never heard one with a Rega and they are extremely source dependent so not sure how that would play out. Sweet spot is wider, excellent coherency, great presentation that’s very organic, slightly warmer neutral leaning, very resolving, strong micro focus overall. If I did have some qualms it would be that it’s not as extended in both the top and bottom end of some other speakers in this range, it is slightly lacking some macrodynamic ability (and raw impact as well), and it’s pickiness to the source can be slightly troublesome, but I think this is absolutely a speaker to consider for what you are after imo (although on 2nd thought these might not be as all rounder as other options)

I might suggest passing here, because it’s a pretty clinical dry and forward speaker, not in a bad way, but it’s focus is on strong technical ability and in that it somewhat loses some organicness and ends up sometimes being less than enjoyable with poor recordings, which you mentioned you weren’t exactly after.

It’s an enjoyable speaker that’s got good low end and pretty holographic (but not that natural) stage, good resolving power, good speed and separation, fairly dynamic, nice timbre, smoother leaning overall and actually somewhat forgiving to music, overall pretty solid all rounder imo. Although they can be more picky in placement

I’ve heard the first s400, it’s got great low end overall esp for it’s size, overall it feels much larger than it is, wide sweet spot, overall fairly balanced perhaps slightly darker in signature, solid dynamics, good resolution, great speed and separation. I do think coherency can sometimes be off, transients can sound artificially quick, and its overall presentation isn’t as organic as it could be, but for everything else it offers I wouldn’t complain too much given the price. Personally while I like the speaker I think the hype surrounding it is a bit extreme for what it is, felt the same about people hyping up tekton stuff (was good, but imo felt their speakers were too mechanical and lifeless)

Not heard the other options

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60

Yes, I think so as well, when I read on this forum about Amber 3 it seems to match a lot with my preferences. I’ve also had a small chat about this with Lukasz Fikus and he mentioned that the Amber 3 would be an ideal match for Rega Aethos.

This one (and its bigger brother) is (are) on my list for a while, maybe I’ll try to get a home audition, like you say, they seem to be very picky about a lot of things but apparently full of bliss once you get it right.

That would explain the numbers, who wants a clinical dry speaker for home setup? Thanks for the warning. Dealers here push these, maybe because they know you’ll probably come back for something else.

Thanks for your input, there’s not much about these ones but maybe this one should get labelled best bang for the buck iso the Elac’s, 90DB sensitivity, that’s also a plus… Might be worth a demo although I feel like I could get some more fidelity and transparency with spending just a bit more. My main worry here is, besides placement, that I will be suffering from upgraditis pretty quick, lusting for some more detail. maybe if shopping around a 1-1.5k window…

That is my main conclusion here as well. Its much about compromises and this one seems to do a lot of good things for the price. You can put it much better to wording but what you say about its faults pretty much aligns with my perception based on what I’ve read. Now, interesting is that Mads Buchardt claims to specifically have addressed these problem areas in the MK II and the available reviews seem to confirm that. Mads has always been pretty open, I like his style and what he’s doing, he has access to the best of Danish hi-fi, I’m edging to believing his claims. A bit refreshing against all these traditional manufacturers with their marginal improvements and marketing lies.

Would a DAC like the Amber 3 make the presentation more organic and balance things out?

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Yes I really enjoy the atc stuff for sure lol, really enjoyable when set up properly (can get somewhat dull and dry when not), have had a few pairs of atc in the past

I do personally like that speaker, but you have to know what you are after with that one, otherwise it might impress with it’s technical ability but it can get overwhelming in the long run for some. I do really like PMC stuff for studio monitors, although you have to have fairly specific wants for their speakers for casual listening. Great initial wow factor but some people might find they are looking for a different direction after awhile

It is a good amount of sound per dollar yes

I’d potentially agree

If you do end up with a mkii, would be very curious to hear your thoughts on it (or any other speaker you end up with lol)

Sure, but if the speaker inherently has that problem bad enough you can only do so much, but the amber can def improve the situation in some cases imo

Also out of curiosity, have you looked into anything harbeth? Honestly kinda sounds up your alley at least sound wise and would have good synergy with your gear, something like a C7ES-3 might really be worth a look (organic, technically able, sweeter and slightly warmer leaning that does forgive a reasonable amount, pretty natural and enveloping stage, great extension, pretty dynamic overall)