Source and source gear.? Am I missing something? I do not see your source components, streaming service, and or whatever else is actually providing the music. The best HP will only reproduce whatever you feed it as well as the signal allows for. That’s my opinion.
3 Likes
Would agree, might be worthwhile to port over some of the stuff mentioned in the hfg thread @Finite since you had some info on what you currently have/use for your setups and what you’re after more sound wise there. Would be good to have more context to better answer what you’re asking somewhat
1 Like
You didn’t mention your current gear, mostly dac/amp but to some extent streamer as well. I never went estats so can’t say much on that front but if you’re experimenting, might be easier to start with non estats as that’ll allow more options in terms of swapping gear.
Setting a budget and deciding what you want to upgrade first would be better before choosing what to get (that’s usually how I start and then blow all my budget lol). Having a pair of not very picky headphones might also be a good idea, I saw you have Caldera starred, for example. They can be had used at a decent price and resold if you don’t like and are not super picky afaik.
Mojo Mystique X is an excellent dac, I used to have an SE and there is an X listed here somewhere. Baltic and Rockna are excellent choices as well. All will keep you satisfied for a long time. I didn’t have it but S3 is a good choice as well, others have had it here and can comment more.
I’m not very familiar with your starred amps but you can good info on some of tube amps here (WA33, Envy, EC). WA33 will have enough power for Sus and will serve as a pre in case you go down 2ch but I’ve heard most describe it as dry. EC amps tend to be dry (I had a studio B and can confirm). With big DHT tubes (300B and 2A3 most commonly but also 845 and 211 which are less common with headphone amps), the tube costs also add up quickly. Also look at DNA amps for Utopia and ZMF synergy but they have insane wait times unless you get used or are willing to wait. I’m not the person to talk about SS. I hear good things about Auris but I don’t think they retain value in case you’re planning to move gear around.
In general, crawl around to get a good idea of used gear for things you are interested in to see what you would sell for if you don’t like it so you’re prepared to accept the hit. I tend to think of the difference as the rental price for trying out new gear. Have fun and keep us posted!
4 Likes
This is a healthy (mental) outlook, I do likewise.
5 Likes
My bad, forgot to mention it since I posted this while on lunch break. My setup at this point is pretty basic:
300 GB Flac library through Foobar2000 on PC → Denafrips Ares II → MLP, BH Crack Speedball, or RebelAmp → 20+ headphones I need to start selling ASAP (hence why I said midfi hell). I don’t use any streaming services.
And this is why i asked, be careful when moving up in quality of resolution, the PC itself can be a noise ridden source once the quality of your upstream chain begins to go up past a certain level. Unfortunately you won’t know it until you simply hit that bottleneck and begin to experience various noise issues or worse yet the bottleneck from the PC will be there and you will be setting limits to the rest of your system it simply cannot overcome. We can’t help you hear a difference in 1’s and 0’s being fed from a digital source, its a lesson you either understand and accept or ignore and deal with it to a personal level of satisfaction.
This is a point of contention and disagreement in the general community almost as troublesome as cabling.
My OWN Opinions and experiences: Purchase a transducer, (ie. HP or speakers) of well established reputation by sources whose TASTE and general experience you personally understand or at least agree w/ to be near your own tastes/desires or simply go with a manufacturer whose build quality, and sound character you value.
Next, set a budget and general time schedule or plan that will allow you to build the system up from front end source to amplification. In MY OPINION based on MY Experience best value can be achieved from quality source > DAC > Amplification, with the most “wiggle room” at the amplifier partially depending on money spent relative to transducer.
What do i mean? Example, a Susvara, run off a $20K msrp amp. Being fed off a phone dongle playing youtube music files will never IMO provide you maximum performance. This is an extreme example, but i also feel this hobby has extreme and misunderstood and varying technologies that do not necessarily synergize and synergy is a hard to grasp or comprehend part of the experience. You are preparing to spend hard cash, educate yourself best possible. Midfi is good stuff, “better” gets real expensive, real fast and can bottneck (based on my own opinions and experiences) wildly and with unique results or repercussions which are not always clear to understand and work around.
Plenty of good folks here to offer their own experiences for you to think about and form your own opinion. Good luck and happy listening 
9 Likes
Everyone here gave really good advice. At the end of the day, everything is important because you are only hearing the best of your weakest link in the audio chain. I think for starting out, since you have a lot of headphones already in the mid-fi section, I think listening to NickMimi advice first would be a really good first step. NickMimi was one of the first guy I reached out to for some advice and he told me something similar about getting out of my computer and using a streamer. I started dipping my toes with a Computer > DDC > DAC and that blew my mind. I was “woah” the computer was holding me back this entire time. I was also using Foobar2000 with Wasapi mode during that time. Then, I wanted to dip my toes further and got a nice Pi2AES streamer and again, another step up from the DDC because this time, I was able to get rid of the PC noise completely and reach a good black background with my audio chain.
I am currently during some reading on random post on CD players because I am interested in going that path vs a streamer to see why some people prefer CD Player vs Digital Streaming. I came across this good stevehoffman forum post and I feel like this applies to all source really.
I compared my current player (Teac P/70 Transport and D/70 DAC; original new cost about £10,000 in 2004) with a Marantz CD-6oo3 (cost £250 in 2010 or so). There was a difference but it wasn’t that obvious - you had to listen for what that difference was then when you ‘got it’ you noticed. The difference was principally a seemingly quieter background allowing more details to be heard. When you knew these details were present you could then hear them on the Marantz, but you had to listen for them. On the Teac’s they were just there. Whether that is worth forty times the price who can say - if you have the money and like listening to music it is.
High end players have more attention to detail of every part of the chain. The Teac’s for example apparently have a highly thought of CD turntable that holds the CD rigidly (known as a VRDS - Vibration Free Rigid Disc Clamp System) and so, it’s claimed, reduce the need for error correction.
My guess is they will last longer then mass production products. My Teac’s have been trouble free since I got them fourteen years ago and used almost every day.
If they ever needed replacing I would look at the PS Audio designs as they seem to be quite innovative, but more likely I would go for some sort of computer based audio (which I currently have for headphones). There’s a lot more flexibility there. In your case you could put your vinyl on there too.
^ I think this applies more than just CD player, but also digital streaming as well. Basically, you want more of that “black background” so you would be able to hear more details in your music and it would help with the clarity imo.
You mention that you have a local library, so you can dip your toes first with a DDC to see if you like it and maybe even move on up to a Pi2AES with PiCorePlayer using LMS/Squeezlite for a good cheap local server/streamer.
Next step after source is MON advice on finding your perfect headphone. You could try catch and release method and see your purchase as a rental as Karangovil said. I remember I went nuts on a certain $400 headphone and ended spending over $10K building a chain because I like that headphone so much. And the current result is that I like this chain a lot even 6 months later, just updated my chain by adding a few components. I liked and owned a lot of mid-fi headphones like the Focal Clear OG, Audeze MM-500, and Sony CD3000 were my favorites from memory. If I had more money, I would probably keep all 3, especially the Sony CD3000 (still regret selling it to this day).
I think for us to give better advice, it would really help to know what kind of music you listen to and prefer. I know when you get into this hobby, everyone basically listen to every genre because everything sound so freaking good with all these equipment lol. But, you probably have a preference and knowing that preference would probably help everyone gear you a certain gear and synergy that you would probably like (I read this community headphones posts on the Mysphere 3.2, Raal SR1a, and Susvara description and what type of person would like these headphones and this community is spot on in giving good recommendations). I guess for example, I will expose myself a little bit. One of my favorite genre is female Jrock. Meaning, I do prefer an all-female Japanese Rock Band like Band-Maid, but I can settle for a female lead vocals rock band. So what that means is value forward mid-range so I can hear the female vocals even with the loud electric guitar and drums. I value bass because I really like hearing the growl of a bass guitar and the impact from the kick drums. I value treble for the electric guitar bite and excitement. But I don’t want too much treble because then it would get too bright and offensive to me. I don’t want too much bass because it will overpower the mids and I can’t hear the female vocals. I honestly really value mids and wouldn’t mind getting overkill in the mids lol. So knowing what kind of music you really enjoy and prefer will help this community guide you in the right direction. So I agree with db_Cooper advice on what sound you prioritize as more like a long term goal to keep in mind for every upgrade. Since some headphones have different strength in what they bring to a certain songs. That is why I have 5 main headphones in the rotation since I always want something different for each song and genre.
Hope you find what you are looking for and always take your time finding your perfect setup. I think one of the most fun things in this hobby is trying new gear and discovering a little more about yourself and what you prefer. Because last year, I thought I value bass, now I feel like value midrange the most in my music, but with a good balance of bass and treble. Everything I said is basically regurgitating what everyone said, but just wanted to share my opinion to help give you that extra push on making those upgrades and everyone’s advice is legit.
2 Likes
If I were to do this, my best bet would be to build around the Susvara like you told me on HFG. This is the easiest option (but most expensive) and definitely what I want to do, but…
This is what’s holding me back. I’ve been seeing some really good deals, like $1350 for a SPL Phonitor XE and $3500 for a Mojo Mystique EVO Basic, so that’s having me contemplate whether to swing for those and then pair them with a headphone that has synergy with them (if those two even have synergy together). This would also lead to a generally cheaper beginning that I’ll be able to work with while saving up for the better stuff. But here’s my problem with that… It reminds me of how I’m in midfi hell, spending tons on it just to hear what everything sounds like. I feel like I’ll end up in the same position again, just with more expensive equipment.
I’m probably overthinking this and should just go ahead and sell most of my stuff and start forcing myself to only use one system and only have a few headphones at most. That way I can slowly upgrade over time and find what works for me. I just hate how indecisive I am… This was all so much easier when I was happy with my Schiit Jot2/Modius stack and DCA Æon RT lol.
1 Like
Oh dang, I didn’t realize that even when using WASAPI to bypass the noise, the PC was still adding a noise floor on top of that. I assumed I was fine and that the streamers were mainly for people, well, streaming their music and also saw it as more of a speaker thing. I’ll definitely start looking into stuff like that as well. Time to start reading up as much as I can on them.
2 Likes
I’ll probably join you on this since I already have a CD player (Harman Kardon FL8385) and a ton of CDs, so having another CD player that also works as a way to rid myself of PC noise sounds like a great idea.
1 Like
Nice, CD Player bros!!! I have a list of CD-Transport I am currently interested in buying, but won’t pull the trigger till like later next year or if I get too impatient, early next year. I will paste below the recommendation on CD transport I was thinking about if you really want to go down this route. I currently have a Mojo Audio Mystique Evo B4B 21, so the CD transport I listed is supposed to be a good synergy with the Mystique Evo DAC from what I read, but I’m sure those are good quality CD Transport overall. I am also thinking about some old CD-transport since older gears are usually cheaper, but the sound quality could still have age really well, so you could try that. You just have to worry about parts degrading and what parts been replaced in old gears.
- Jay Audio CD3 MK3
- CD Marantz SA-8003
- Simaudio Moon Neo 260D CD Transport - (Post I found in Audiogon) I use the Sim 260dt (transport version) with a Mojo Audio EVO DAC. I have found that it adds more body and weight to the music then the Cambridge CXC I had been using. The unit’s operation is quiet and smooth, reads redbook or CDRs with zero issues
3 Likes
If you do not rid yourself of gear to set a baseline for your budget and “NEXT Level” upgrades you WILL be stuck with equipment that has little use and never actually FORCE yourself to move in a singular forward momentum.
FYSA just your source can cost upwards of $3-5k and you will STILL be in the upper midfi level and have nothing but a fancy computer with nothing to use it on. It is all relative, for example a $4k HP, should have you looking at DAC, Amp and Source which will run between $3-$10k each if you are really looking to move forward These numbers are much more realistic w/ used gear but still stupid cost numbers. I am NOT trying to be a hypocrite (because I am a gear hoarder) but if you are going to play w/ a TOTL HP then you need to find synergy, sound and power character matches and use the experience of others to SAVE you money rather than stumble forward just having expensive experiences.
Brother if you have money to burn, go ahead and look for random “deals” but you WILL eventually understand that the stumble from random deal to random deal method will NEVER lead you to a singular focused end goal. You will simply learn to appreciate having allot of fun stuff that devalues super fast and simply provide great deals for others moving along in the hobby…These comments are all made to get you to really think before you start shopping for any TOTL equipment. Its a different game. Looking at $50K speakers and thinking $20k in front end will maximize your performance is a simple example of a foolish expenditure, unfortunately many things in this game will eventually require big dollars, even when used.
Have fun but THINK before you spend big boy money, trust me, at some point you will thank me for this advise, the economy is looking bleaker weekly for some and i hope you do not get caught up in it negatively and stuck with $30k worth of gear you can’t offload for anything but pennies on the dollar.
1 Like
It’s why my first comment to you was, decide on what direction you want. The whole point of mid-fi hell is to get to know your tastes and preferences before committing to a direction where the cost to play gets real.
IMO you simply can’t start end game unless you have a direction, as that road will lead to exactly to where you say you are now. There’s nothing wrong with that, because a lot of people WANT the variety and the collection and the spread of different chains and signatures. But if you’re looking for a focused single TOTL chain, it will help enormously to know which direction you want to go in the first place.
4 Likes
a antipodes k10 popped up on head-fi, it’s their cd ripper. Any thoughts here on difference in quality between ripping cds (that’s what it does) and playing direct from another source?
I don’t think there is any difference, but never really tested on equal gears before. I think its probably more beneficial in the long run to rip the CD since the CD would most likely get damage overtime in the long run vs the digital will always stay the same unless something horrible goes wrong and corrupts the file.
I think the reason I’m interested in CD transport is because I am trying to find a shortcut of finding a better source than the EMM NS1 without spending double the price I paid for a good next step. I heard CD Transport is a less expensive way of leveling up your source and the cult following on it seems strong enough for me to take an interest in.
Side note, I thought I would share what an interesting conversation I had with a record player user to everyone here. Quick shill, if anyone is looking for some Vinyl and Mixtapes, check out the Lunchbox Records in Charlotte, NC 
. If anyone is ever wondering whether to either go with Turntable or CD Transport, it all comes down to preference in music. CD’s are the way to go with a lot of rap/hip hop and some modern rock releases. If I remember what he told me, a lot of Jazz releases have really good quality for Vinyl I believe (but not too confident in my memory on that one). Vinyl is more of a hit or miss when it comes to quality. Sometimes , it will be just CD rip and pressed on wax. So some Vinyl is just ripped CD lol. So, it just what kind of transport you are using at the end of the day.
1 Like
A non-tube option that often gets thrown around for Sus in that price range is Ferrum Orr + Hypsos I think. I don’t have any experience with it though.
Another SS option that I personally used and liked was CFA3 if you can find one.
1 Like
Yah, boh will work solidly, but for that price range i think the synergy with mogwai is a lot higher. Between ferrum and cfa3 i think it would largely come down to what dac you have for which would be better
1 Like
I’ve seen the Ferrum Oor + Hypsos stack a lot, but I didn’t think it was something worth getting for the Susvara and would instead be more towards something like the HEKse. Is that stack that good?
The ferrum stack is very nice and good value for the money in used pricing. Works well with Susvara but I preferred it with a tube preamp (funny enough I used WA22 for that). For a new set cost I’d probably look at a Bliss instead but both would do great.
3 Likes
Huh, I thought it was a lower level stack that could easily be beaten by something like a La Voce 3 with a LTA MZ3. Good to know that it’s actually quite apt since I’ve been interested in getting it. Would definitely make for a nice stack before I can afford higher level stuff like a LampizatOr Atlantic TRP/Big Seven and an amp that can pair with them.