Alse depends on the streamer or quality of digital out. I have a mutec mc3+, when I connect that between project stream box s2 ultra and La Voce S3 I couldn’t hear a difference. Between Sotm ultra neo and La Voce S3 the difference is clearly noticeable.
2 Likes
Can anyone here comment on how competent a DDC the Schiit Urd is? I like the dual USB input.
4 Likes
@Christof has (had?) one
2 Likes
Yep I still own the Urd but have replaced it with the holo red. I liked how the urd sounded and provided good isolation between my pc and dac. But it’s quite large and has a bit of a mechanical hum to it which is annoying since I left it on all the time.
I still have it around for a cd player and that functionality works well. But much happier with the red so far. It’s more small, runs silently, maybe gets a bit warmer, and is flexible with the software you run.
4 Likes
I’m going to speak to the Ideon Absolute Time. It was a “Target of opportunity” acquisition a few weeks ago. It’s some kind of USB or SPDIF re-clocker, cleaner-upper. It can input either USB or SPDIF but ONLY outputs to the like. You cannot feed it USB and output to SPDIF. Thus you have USB in → USB out, SPDIF in → SPDIF out that’s it. Feel free to read about it here:
I’ve been playing around w/ the unit, it’s basically brand new, it was purchased for the original owner’s second home BUT he decided to upgrade to the newer Signature V model before bothering to install this unit. (It must be so nice to have FU $$$ 
) I have been told a few hundred hours to break in the circuitry and a good week long warm-up are required before I should make any permanent impressions or judgements of the unit. I’ve also been told to get some appropriate quality cables to use w/ the piece 
If you are bothering to read this the assumption is that you already use or somewhat agree to the relevance of audiophile grade cables, accessories and equipment, my goal is to eventually purchase some “better” BNC/SPDIF cables for the piece, I’m currently using Blue Jeans Brand or Wireworld make BNC/SPDIF cables, I own a bunch of them and use them as my reference in general. My fancier more expensive cables have always been purchased as “targets of opportunity” and I do not have them in consistent or various enough quantities to use across multiple systems, so the Blue Jeans and Wireworld brands have always been my “go-to” for consistency. (RCA, XLR, BNC) So we are clear, my BNC/SPDIF interconnects are “NOT worthy”.
On a good note though i do have a few thousand dollars worth of quality USB cables, 
So for the past few weeks i have been focusing on this unit via USB only on my HP set-up and I’ve finally understood what it does and just how well it does it. Using HP’s was a good choice for me, it allowed me to focus, yes i tried it with speakers but the real value has been on the HP rig thus far.
Stupidly clean, liquid smooth, darker than the void of space background. You can compare it all day long, (disconnect one USB cable from the unit and go direct from your streamer to DAC it’s easy so it doesn’t take much effort to compare often), background blackness gets “blacker”. Listen for the difference in separation, the extra “crispness” seems to pop out. It takes something that already sounds really good and just adds a nice “POP”, which you will then miss later on when you remove the Ideon from the chain. I have found it easier to hear the difference using the HP set-up rather than the speakers, it just seems more pronounced since it’s in my head and i don’t need an absolutely silent room to listen for the change.
The most exciting part has been that I’m slowly cycling through my various HP amplifiers and HP’s and very much enjoying what i have on hand anew. 
I can’t imagine what their new signature series unit does with the appropriate equipment 
. Technology continues to surprise and amaze me.
15 Likes
I’m just talking to myself in this post, if you glean any useful information for yourselves more power to you, but basically I’m attempting to reason out what to do with a piece of kit. 
Update on the IDEON Absolute Time re-clocker, it’s been a few months of cycling the unit between my 2 HP set-ups, my desktop and my 2 x 2 channel systems and I’m facing a personal quandary. 
I’ve got a “sic” amount of money tied up in this particular piece of equipment and the more I familiarize myself w/ it the places i most enjoy using it aren’t worth the investment.
Dollar for dollar the only system the Ideon should logically be mated w/ in my home is the main 2 channel in the living room, re-enforcing the strengths of My Berkely DAC. I’ve got a spot picked out for it, it matches the silver of the DAC and i would even eventually buy some decently fancy cables to connect the 2 pieces if for no other reason than to satiate my own OCD. “So what’s the problem Nick?” The room is the problem, the space is what it is and it isn’t going to improve anytime in my lifetime stated bluntly, what the Ideon brings in performance improvements are wasted in this particular space. This room is as good as it’s going to get based on my personal finances, minus a lottery win. Yes, i could sell off a few sets of speakers and maybe stumble across a large pair of speakers w/ a propensity for better than average resolution that might possibly benefit a tiny bit from the extra blackness, depth, and spatial clarity the Ideon offers in presentation but overall the room is the limiting factor at this point and I’m not modifying the room beyond the level it sits at now. This is a case of, “the squeeze is not worth the juice.” Or put simply, extreme diminishing returns on money invested.
Next, i really, really tried to love the Ideon in my smaller 2 channel test room, i’ve easily got over 100hrs on the Ideon in this room listening and picking apart my equipment in painful detail. Flat out the Zenith Mk3 streamer and Lampizator Baltic 3 DAC perform their best w/ the FTA Callisto USB between them and nothing else. The Ideon tightens the soundstage in accuracy BUT it takes away the “Romace, fullness and a touch of warmth”. I appreciate the extra bit of “POP” the Ideon allows for in depth, resolution and space between instruments but it comes at a cost of width to the edges of the room and in a small room like this that’s the “Bubble of love” that actually brings me joy and pleasure and i’m not willing to lose it:rage:. I’m willing to play a bit more w/ improving room acoustics, treating corners, windows, walls and possibly even the ceiling, MAYBE. 
I risk losing what I actually like about the sound in this room and just so i can say, “I heard an Angel shart herself behind the singer in a track or two.” 
I can already hear her farts, now i want to distinguish if they are wet or not? 
Move forward in time to a few weeks after i started writing this post:
Ugh, I’ve been documenting these thoughts for a few weeks now. I decided to try a different combination in my small room. Zenith via > Nordost TYR2 usb > Ideon via FTA Callisto usb > Sonnet Pasithea DAC > First Watt Sit 3 > Charney Audio Companion speakers w/ new 2025 Lowther DX65 transducers. This is a particularly synergistic combination and the Sonnet Pasithea DAC, as it did previously when i tried it w/ the Ideon on my HP stack performs at what to my ears seems like a well elevated level of performance In particular front to rear soundstage depth, separation in space and micro dynamics are fantastic. I’m still trying to get a better feel for macro-dynmics, that’s a sound quality I’m still not experienced enough to speak to. Eventually i want to swap amplifiers w/ this combo, keep cables the same and see if i continue to feel as enthusiastic about the Ideon / Pasithea combo. Then we do all this again adding the PASS HPA-1 in the mix as a pre-amp to the SIT-3, (I really liked that w/ my Baltic3 and NO Ideon). 
Lastly, I’ve been itching to play w/ Speaker cables, (if i manage to survive the turmoil and possible layoffs at my agency), there are some custom Dueland speaker cables i want made for the Charney Speakers which I’m hoping will emphasize their best character traits enough to put them over the top and into front running for my favorite speakers of the moment 
As far as the Ideon Absolute Time re-clocker is concerned, IMHO headphone’s is where the sweet spot lies for this piece. Take the room out of the equation and sit back and enjoy what it does for your USB or SPIDIF connection. You could probably spend many months trying various streamer and cable combo’s w/ the Ideon really fine tuning a HP rig. Here lies the rub for me, it’s wasted $$$$ on my HP rigs, for every 100 hrs. of listening time i get on 2 channel maybe i get 1hr of HP use…maybe
Like i said, don’t mind me I’m just doing some writing therapy and dropping notes for my own use. Happy listening to you all always
8 Likes
I don’t think anything you said is inherently wrong or intrinsically right. it’s just a matter of what we knew going in… that Ideon is way beyond the rivers and the lakes that you’re used to and you went off chasing waterfalls.
I would SOOOOO jump on it, I’ve thought about it a lot no joke but I’d be pretty much in the same boat you’re in and adding insult to injury I’d have to plunk another two grand in coax SPDIF cables.
6 Likes
Im thinking about wheter getting a used mutec mc3+ usb or a used denafrips hermes 12th in some time as a DDC for my PC, mainly because of drivers issues with my matrix xspdif3, which sounds perfectly fine, I love it and I wish I could just stay with it but it just has all kind of random driver problems with several of my computers so im just changing brands.
I see both include an internal PSU which is nice, and I dont plan to add a clock to any of the 2 anytime soon.
I would also add the berkeley alpha usb 2 to my DDC options but I prefer to keep it out of the list since its more expensive and difficult to find used; but If one appeared for a low cost I would probably go with that instead.
Ive looked into the denafrips hermes 12th and mutec mc3+ and both seem like amazing DDC options to have for a simple laptop setup. What yall think?
Im giving no priority to any clock right now because after the ddc I would save up for a dac and cables upgrade.
1 Like
Do you have Windows 11?
I had a similar issue with the Red and Windows 11. A Windows update broke the drivers. I updated to the latest one offered by Holo Audio, same issue. Tried multiple drivers, same issue. I got tired of it. I uninstalled the driver completely, rebooted my PC, ran Windows Update, still the same issue. Deleted the drivers again, rebooted the PC, and now it’s working like it used to again.
I know you’ve done some troubleshooting before, but try that one more time. Windows 11 is still getting updates. I had an issue with a scanner since last year, they finally fixed it a couple of weeks ago.
2 Likes
Yes
EDIT: Since someone coincidentally is pushing to buy my matrix DDC right now I do have the chance to get a Mutec mc3+, and I think youre absolutely right, if I do encounter any kind of driver issue it should be easily solved by the method you suggested, or by blocking some windows update features with a fresh install.
My previous laptop was absolutely cursed with ROM BIOS level usb driver compatibility issues, this one is not, I dont think I will have any problems that arent easy to solve.
I think Its a great pick and the cost is very solid.
If I understood @M.J correctly from the other thread, the MC3+ USB should be a noticeable upgrade from my matrix xspdif 3 sound wise (plus nice input and output options) even before adding the ref10 nano, which I think I would do way after because I think my digital cable game is a bit weak and Im worried that could hinder the performance.
Id also like to upgrade my dac but since that would be the most expensive I think I could leave that for last.
Currently im running
PC > Supra Excalibur USB > Matrix XSPDIF 3 DDC > Morrow Audio DIG3 AES > Exogal Comet + > Pass Labs HPA1/Yamamoto ha02 into several headphones.
I can start with the mutec and then im thinking some cables like Triode Wire Labs passion USB and Spirit 110 AES.
3 Likes
Not sure how this went under my radar, seems like an interesting option for a master clock for the price, don’t see many atomic clocks for audio around this price point
10 Likes
So, in your opinion, what tier does your system need to be that a master clock really is a worthwhile purchase? I also assume it requires equipment that will all sync up to it.
2 Likes
Not where yours and mine are.
…anyways, best audio spec ever!
10 year aging less than 5 ppb
1 Like
It really depends on if you have a digital source or dac that can actually take advantage and benifit from one. I’ve personally had some digital components scale a fair bit better with a quality clock, and some that don’t. I don’t know if there’s an exact point where it becomes worthwhile and where it doesn’t, but I’d just hope to have most of the rest of the system up to snuff before messing with some expensive clocks. I’ve found it worthwhile in some of my setups, but not others. None of my final setups ended up with a clock in them though, but that might be more a characteristic of the equipment chosen rather than anything else
2 Likes
What I’ve never been able to figure out is why the 10 Mhz, and 44.1 Mhz and 48 Mhz which I understand individually but not as a grouping. Is it because typically synchonization among machines was a 10 Mhz std thing before the music frequency standard came in?
It makes diving in the clocking world that little bit harder as for example you couldn’t use this on a large number of DACs.
1 Like
There’s a lot of argument over that, one of the reasons why some favor localized oscillators for more direct frequency instead of having something in the dac to use that 10mhz reference to derive a wordclock for a PLL (into various different frequencies such as 11.2896mhz which is divided into 44.1 as an example or something more direct). Some master clocks do output at different rates that more are directly divisible for wordclocks. It’s also a discussion of potential distortion and artifacting that might be introduced by an external clock and how really design something to truly take advantage of one. It’s also a matter of sine vs square wave clocks, cabling quality, type of clock source (one of the reasons why atomics might not be considered for audio is because they’re better at long term stability but typically worse in short term jitter vs OXCO), etc. Some dacs really don’t have as good of internal clock sources or have the capability to improve with an external source that it locks well onto, some don’t and either see little benefit or actually sound worse, all depends on a lot of design factors and the quality of your equipment and your clock.
I think it’s really a matter of philosophy in design, some designers want to keep everything localized because they believe that’s the most accurate, some prefer to outsource to allow for even better clocking sources that might have been cost, space, or other design prohibitive to put into the product themselves (and also want to reduce/remove the amount of work that needs to be done cleaning up a clock signal internally), and some actually even design around the idea of a clock adding controlled distortion for subjective sound quality increases. Not all dacs or digital sources with clock inputs are equal, some will directly override internal clocks and processing to give you the direct performance of the clock, some will try and buffer/reclock the incoming clock source (which imo kinda defeats the point), so it really depends on how it’s integrated and how the designer really intends for a clock input to impact the product.
Really a master clock has more use in a studio with multiple digital devices like converters and interfaces and whatnot in terms of getting all those on the same page (and preventing compounding jitter when chained together), in home hifi that’s less a situation, but it’s also not absent either. In some ecosystems, you can have a digital source like a reclocker or streamer + your dac + even if you have a network switch with a clock in or some other digital device/dsp all synced with the same clock source and there’s sometimes potential benefit to that.
Personally, I do really think it’s something that heavily depends on the components you decide to use, and if they’re intended to really be used with a master clock, and it’s also just a lot of experimentation to see how the sound changes (or doesn’t), so it’s hard to say if it’s worthwhile or not without using one yourself. All I truly know is that good clocks are expensive, and that clocking is generally an important focus that all good designers tend to pay careful attention to, regardless of if the source is coming from outside or inside the house lol
To actually answer the question, I think 10mhz became the reference because it’s a nice number in terms of being pretty stable for frequency/timing compared to something higher like 50mhz
4 Likes
This breaks my brain. lol
Thanks for the detailed explanation though, I didn’t really understand the 11.2896mhz multiplier although that as you say adds another layer to the process. I guess it’s one of the reasons why I’m content in the Mojo, it forces me to use AES or SPDIF and thus rely on the clock of an external source to begin with. We know timing is everything it’s just the degree to which you can take it, only audiphiles rush in. It is freaking cool to say you’ve got an atomic clock in your chain though. lol
2 Likes
Some just feel their internal stuff is better lol. As an example the Kassandra has the feature to disable the PLL and rely on the incoming clock, but that feature only exists out of spite since the designer intends for you to do that and hear how it sounds worse lol (also why he has no clock in on his dac).
11.2896mhz / 256 is 44.1khz, 12.288mhz / 256 is 48khz, just convenient mhz numbers to use since they might be cheaper/easier to get the desired performance compared to something higher or lower, donno though since 22.5792/24.576 is also used / 512, too into the woods for me there lol. Just what designers decide to use. Different base clock frequencies have their own upsides and downsides in terms of the quality, cost, and complexity of the clocks you can get
Keep in mind that a 10mhz reference signal and wordclock are not the same thing. 10mhz does not become the wordclock, it’s used as a stable reference to derive a wordclock from. And with spdif/aes you could be using the internal or external clock, depends on the dac, and typically the dac will still try to stabilize ore reclock the incoming clock using it’s own internal clocks depending on it’s design, some do some don’t. Maybe a good argument for an external clock if both the digital source and the dac are using the same reference, easier time locking and potentially bypassing internal clock quality
I guess so lol. Well I mean technically you may have 2 depending on the clock you use (since some use 2 internally, or if you decide to get one that supports tagging on another), since ideally you would want 2 atomic clocks locked/synced to eachother for best performance :3
4 Likes
Ill wait for the optical clocks to be mainstream before i worry about my audio clocking much more.
2 Likes
Should be noted that some manufacturers (DCS at least), their external clock is a Wordclock.
But it isn’t common.
I’ve never understood how outside a studio setting where a central clock is really a requirement, a 10MHz external clock is in any way a benefit, the Jitter when directly deriving from that at 44.1 or 48KHz would be terrible. And the device itself would pretty much have to be generating the clock or deriving it from the input signal.
There is also the issue with running external clocks over long wires, there is a reason you generally position Xtals next to the thing that requires the clock signal.
But again I’ve always put it down to it must do something I’m missing, some people love them on some equipment.
2 Likes